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"Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

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Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#151
post #11
post #6

There was a time when Intel seemed unbeatable. In 2000 they had a 500 billion USD valuation. That's almost a trillion dollars in today's (2024) USD. Today they are valued at 90 billion USD and Broadcom was thinking about buying them... My point is these things don't seem to last in tech.

What made Intel seem unbeatable was its process node advantage. Nvidia does not have fabrication plants, so it is able to get the best process node from whoever has it. Nvidia is therefore not vulnerable to what befell Intel. What makes Nvidia seem unbeatable is that Nvidia does the best job on hardware design, does a good job on the software for the hardware and gets its designs out quickly such that they can charge…

I've been using Gaudi chips for a little bit and they are totally fine (and the software stack is even pretty good, or at least the happy path is mostly covered for me). For example I set up training with autocasting, activation checkpointing, fused ops, profiling etc., without too much trouble. I'll write a long blog post about it soon but I think their issue with the Gaudi chips is simply making enough and convincing people to buy them before Falcon Shores (which will, I think, be Xe slice based, so more like a better PVC chip than a Gaudi).

In summary the software story was very surprisingly better than I expected (no Jax though).

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even understand why binning non-defect cards is dubious. It's like the logic people have on /r/pcmasterrace is that if they didn't bin, they would just release all 4090s at 4080 prices. No, there would just be less 4080s for people to buy. No chip maker is going to sell their chips at sub-market rates just because they engineered them to/have a fab that can produce them at very low defect rates. Now, Nvidia c…

> No, there would just be less 4080s for people to buy. Sure, and more 4090s at a lower price.

Nvidia wouldn't leave money on the table dropping the price of the 4090. There would just be more supply of 4090s at the same price. A card manufacturer selling them below MSRP would get immediately sanctioned by Nvidia.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AMD has inexplicably decided not to invest in software. Just like car manufacturers don't realize that a shitty infotainment system can keep people from buying the $100k car, AMD doesn't seem to realize that people aren't buying a GPU for ML if their ML framework doesn't run on it... And this goes down to consumer drivers too. I've sworn to myself that I'm not buying AMD for my next laptop, after endless instability…

> AMD has inexplicably decided not to invest in software Perhaps they were distracted by dismantling Intel's CPU hegemony? I wouldn't fault them for that, fighting 2 Goliaths simultaneously isn't a sound strategy.

If that was the case, then they shouldn't have bought ATi.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, there would just be less 4080s for people to buy. Sure, and more 4090s at a lower price.

Nvidia wouldn't leave money on the table dropping the price of the 4090. There would just be more supply of 4090s at the same price. A card manufacturer selling them below MSRP would get immediately sanctioned by Nvidia.

Even a monopolist is constrained by supply and demand. If they could sell everything they make as a 4090 without trashing their margins, they would. The fact that 4080, 4070, 4060 lines exist means they can't.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#157
post #75
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is smarter than this - they sign all their firmware, so you can't just modify the firmware and bypass this. No signed firmware means no functioning card. The famous example of this was the 'reduced hash functionality' RTX 3060 cards that accidentally had the 'reduced hash' feature disabled in a signed copy of firmware that Nvidia released. If they hadn't accidently released this firmware, the reduced hash stuf…

I am indeed well aware of how firmware validation works. Finding a vulnerability in firmware validation is however much more likely than reversing OTP for almost all varieties of OTP, even NVidia’s firmware validation which is generally regarded as pretty strong.

This reminds me of when Motorola introduced the first carrier-enforced, signature lock on Android with no "OEM Unlock" option and a bunch of ... questionably informed... people insisted it was by passable. (To my knowledge, it has not been bypassed, and jesus that was 15 years ago probably)

Granted, it's Nvidia, and they've been featured in devices that were notoriously hackable, but also, it's not 2018 anymore.

Needless to say, people should understand when they buy an Nvidia card, they should fully expect to use Nvidia firmware, with whatever that entails.

EDIT: I'd really like to remember the name of this device. It was the same era as Blackberry releasing... the Storm? Some resistitive-touch device with a physically clickable screen. Motorola Storm? I really wish I could recall. (sub-edit: I think the Storm was the Blackberry device. So something else...)

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#158
post #52

NVIDIA is obviously not above market segmentation via dubious means (see: driver limitations for consumer GPUs), but I think binning due to silicon defects is a more likely explanation in this case. Some 4090s have this extra fp16 -> fp32 ALU disabled because it's defective on that chip. Other 4090s have it disabled because it failed as an Ada 6000 for some other reason, but NVIDIA didn't want to make a 4095 SKU to s…

I'm not sure that it's completed as a separate fp16 ALU. There's cute ways to share logic between a dual fp16 alu and a single fp32 ALU such that it's really just one ALU with those being different ops.

As I understand it, that's how the original MMX got started. It was largely reusing the x87 ALU, but breaking the carry chains at the obvious points.

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#159
post #131
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on who you ask, binning is segmentation. Generally demand isn't going to exactly match how the yields work out, so companies often take a bunch of perfectly good high-end chips, nerf them, and throw them in the cheapo version. You used to be able to (and still can, in some cases) take a low-end device and, if you'd won the chip lottery, "undo" the binning and have a perfectly functional high-end version. Fo…

> You used to be able to (and still can, in some cases) take a low-end device and, if you'd won the chip lottery, "undo" the binning and have a perfectly functional high-end version. For the purposes you tested it, sure. Maybe some esoteric feature you don't use is broken. NVIDIA still can't sell it as the higher end SKU. The tests a chip maker runs to bin their chips are not the same tests you might run. I'm sure ch…

Disabling cores that have 100% passed QA is quite commonplace, especially for chips that have been on the market for over a year and thus are being built with yields as mature as they're going to get.

Artificially restricting supply of high-end chips and increasing supply of mid-range chips by disabling fully functional cores is how chip makers preserve their pricing structure. Without doing this, market pressures would force prices down on high-end chips and cause lower bins to mostly disappear from the market, leaving the product line with lower overall margins and a PR nightmare every time a new generation launches with pricing reset back to the initially high levels.

As a rule of thumb: if a chip product line goes a whole year without having new SKUs show up with a higher percentage of cores enabled or higher clock speeds for the same core count, then the manufacturer is artificially restricting supply to make more of the lower-bin parts than naturally occur in the fab output.

> And that correction might be in the form of removing redundancies from the chip design, rather than increasing the supply/lowering the price of higher end SKUs.

Those two courses of action take place on completely different timescales. Disabling cores and other binning tricks can be implemented in no more than a few months. Adding a new chip with a different number of copies of the same IP blocks takes well over a year. Removing redundancy within an IP block (eg. by having fewer spare SRAM blocks for a cache of a fixed capacity) isn't going to happen within a single chip generation.

In the semiconductor world, corrections of any kind tend toward "later" rather than "sooner".

Re: "Nvidia is so far ahead that all the 4090s are nerfed to half speed"

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AMD has inexplicably decided not to invest in software Perhaps they were distracted by dismantling Intel's CPU hegemony? I wouldn't fault them for that, fighting 2 Goliaths simultaneously isn't a sound strategy.

If that was the case, then they shouldn't have bought ATi.

AMD's acquisition of ATI was a net detriment to AMD for at least a decade. They ended up with a ton of debt, had to sell off their fabs but still had to use those fabs even after they were uncompetitive, and struggled to field high-end products in either CPU or GPU product lines. They didn't start to reap significant benefits from having both product lines under one corporate umbrella until they started scoring design wins for game console SoCs, and those provided sales volume but not much profit margin.
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