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Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

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Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#151

A hundred years ago on irc someone from Russia was describing their internet connection, which was ethernet, while I had only ever heard of dial up outside of large companies. It was just people had set up their own hubs and switches in their appartment buildings and strung cables between buildings. This blew my mind. They just ran themselves ethernet and everyone got a drop from a switch in their building. It wasn't…

You're describing the sort of daydreams I had about running a cable between my home and my friend's home when I was 14 years old. We were too far apart. But playing Descent matches would have been awesome. We got by on dialup, but a kid can dream. I also dreamt of ISDN. Looking back, it seems such a paltry offering, but that tells you what an old man I've become.

Having ISDN whilst most of my friends were on 56k made me really appreciate it. It connected silently and almost instantly, ping times were low with virtually no jitter, it was a consistent 64k whilst also leaving the phone line available (a boon for parents and kids alike) or you could use both lines for 128k. Fond memories.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#152
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They also have a state owned bank. ND once had a very strong "Democratic Farmer Labor party". Not to get into R vs D here, as the parties have flip flopped a lot since then & the Limbaugh movement changed the state from a very purple state (all Congress members were D in the 80s-90s). The only way you win in the state now is with a R next to your name, so the Rs are having an identity crisis. Minnesota had the DFL.…

> Minnesota had the DFL. North Dakota had the NPL. You are right. I blame my recollection of it being very "farmer based". I believe Heitkamp lost to Cramer who was an early Trump backer, in a state that was/(still possibly is) in love with Trump - possibly due to him being 1 of few candidates to ever stop in the state due to lack of electoral votes. The polarization of the state also gave her no chances of winning.…

> It'll be interesting to see if/when the Dakotas ever goes back to being purple.

IMHO, that'll be when the national political apparatus once allows politicians to be heterodox again. I wouldn't be surprised if Democrats the Dakotas used to reliably send to the federal government were of the "blue dog" variety that's practically extinct (i.e. relatively conservative, especially socially). But with the withering of local media and its replacement with stuff made far away for a national audience (cable news, New York Times, etc.), I think it's more likely things will just polarize more along national lines, since people will know less about their community and pay less attention to it, and instead know a lot more about the dumb national controversy of the day and pay attention to that.

Honestly, I'd kind of like to see some kind of regulation that limits the reach of a media organizations beyond their home regions, to preserve local culture and attitudes. Sort of like Canada's Canadian content requirements (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_content).

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#154

Once space-based broadband Internet becomes widely available, I predict shortsighted ISPs will join the ranks of Kodak and Blockbuster.

Starlink has insufficient capacity for metropolitan areas. I don't think this is easily solvable, given the shared medium and the bandwidth constraints.

Let's try some back of the envelope calculation for providing broadband to the US via LEO satellites.

Initially assume everyone is spread out uniformly, and that we need a broadband connection for every three people, and that 100 Mbps counts as broadband.

If all connected were in use at the same time downloading at 100 Mbps we need an aggregate bandwidth of 11000 Tbps. Actual usage would be more bursty, so let's assume we can oversell by a factor of 100. That reduced the aggregate bandwidth need to 110 Tbps.

Wikipedia tells me the satellite with the most bandwidth currently are those in the ViaSat-3 constellation of geosynchronous satellites, each with a bandwidth of 1 Tbps. Let's assume we can get LEO satellites with that bandwidth.

We would need 110 to get the required aggregate bandwidth. However, since each satellite only spends roughly 1/8 of its time over the US we need to multiply the number of satellites by 8.

That brings is to 880 satellites, but remember, we were assuming a uniformly spread out population. We need to take into account the non-uniformity of the actual population.

To do that we need to know the ground area that a satellite can serve simultaneously. That depends on the height of the satellite.

Google is telling me Starlink's around around 350 miles up, so let's assume that is what we use too. A naive distance to horizon calculation says that a satellite at that height would have an horizon around 2500 miles away.

I'm not sure if that means it could actually broadcast to people 2500 miles away from whatever its spot is over or if there would be problems due to the shallow angle the signal would have to travel to the receiver.

If each satellite can effectively broadcast to such a large circle then most of the 110 visible at a given time from the US would be visible over a wide enough area that how the population is distributed might not matter much.

This is assuming that the satellites do not interfere with each other. My guess is that there would be interference and they would have to operate more like cellular networks operate, with each satellite having a limited ground area that it broadcasts into using some kind of spot beam.

Feasibility now depends on the size of those spot beams and how accurately they can be aimed. If they can adjust the beams to cover large areas when they are serving a rural area and small areas when serving a dense area, and if they can aim that spot anywhere in that 2000+ mile radius circle where the satellite is visible then 880 satellites may be enough.

If, on the other hand, their beams are pretty much fixed in size and direction, then we would probably need a lot more satellites. Given the area of the US, for everyplace to have coverage the 110 satellites that would be over the US on average would have to each be responsible for a circle of around 200 miles in diameter, and could handle the needs of 3 million people.

If you've got more than 3 million people in a 200 mile circle you'll need more satellites over that circle.

Suppose we have an area that needs several satellites. It might be possible to arrange orbits so particular places always have a lot of satellites so that you could cover that area without having to simply make your constellation bigger.

I have no idea if that is possible. If not you may have to increase you constellation size so that you every place has the number of satellites that your highest density 200 mile diameter circle needs.

I don't think that there is any 200 mile diameter circle in the US that would need more that 20 satellites, which would mean we'd need 17600 satellites in the constellation.

Note that this is quite dependent on the circle size so could be way off from reality. Also I've not considered communications from the ground to the satellite which might also impose constraints.

Conclusion: it doesn't seem obviously impossible to provide 100 Mbps broadband via satellite to everyone in the US. A more detailed analysis is needed.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#155
post #69
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works out great until some capital pool decides to start acquiring smaller isps to roll them up into a larger corporate behemoth. As has happened in multiple other industries from groceries, animal vets, rentals, software niches, to hospitals and these days nursing homes Then the "efficiency" becomes how much can be extracted from the business and customers

Privately held companies have the option to reject these offers. A business doesn't have to be a non-profit or community-owned in order to do something principled. One good leader/owner is all it takes.

One pattern I see is small private companies that have that have a pretty great owner/leader, but it all breaks down near retirement, or hand-off to another generation of the owning family, or maybe a temporary financial bottleneck.

Maybe it's ok that small companies have lifetimes and get replaced, but the problem is that today, there is always a capital pool collecting and the large pools live forever, so maybe they won't collect today, but if they are systematically there at the transition points, then we get big entrenched interests with enough accumulated mass to bend the market rules.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#156
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congress could do it, either directly or by granting more authority to the FCC.

Does the FCC have authority over fiber and cable? That's not using any public airwaves/broadcast bandwidth.

Yes, the FCC has authority over fiber and cable. Skim the amended Communications Act of 1934 (47 U.S. Code § 151 - Purposes of chapter; Federal Communications Commission created [1]):

> For the purpose of regulating interstate and foreign commerce in communication by wire and radio so as to make available, so far as possible, to all the people of the United States, without discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or sex, a rapid, efficient, Nation-wide, and world-wide wire and radio communication service with adequate facilities at reasonable charges...

[1] https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/47/151

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing the sort of daydreams I had about running a cable between my home and my friend's home when I was 14 years old. We were too far apart. But playing Descent matches would have been awesome. We got by on dialup, but a kid can dream. I also dreamt of ISDN. Looking back, it seems such a paltry offering, but that tells you what an old man I've become.

Very early on, say maybe late 90s, cable companies didn’t lock down their networks and you could effectively do this if you were on the same loop. It was amazing to browse neighbor’s windows SMB shares, play LAN games, etc.

Later I had RoadRunner in Albany NY when it first came out, and it was exactly like that. Whole neighborhood was a lan.

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#158
post #133

I really hate to make a political connection here, but it's hard not to notice that of those states exactly one didn't vote for the current President-elect.

Your notice is valid. I would expect the situation to regress significantly as the FCC is reorged...

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#159

A hundred years ago on irc someone from Russia was describing their internet connection, which was ethernet, while I had only ever heard of dial up outside of large companies. It was just people had set up their own hubs and switches in their appartment buildings and strung cables between buildings. This blew my mind. They just ran themselves ethernet and everyone got a drop from a switch in their building. It wasn't…

This exists in the US. Check out https://www.nycmesh.net/

Re: Sixteen U.S. states still ban community-owned broadband networks

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's how I learned the limits of hub cascades ;) Add collision domains on top and you are in not-funny-land.

IPv6 will fix that ;)

Just to be clear, hub collisions are a layer 2 problem, and nothing at layer 3 (IPv4/IPv6) can fix it.
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