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Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

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Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#151

Post by kitchi »

styyyaaa wrote: post #109
benrapscallion wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because this is in UK Biobank, a cohort of >500K Brits and collecting actually in such a large cohort is a miracle, let alone for multiple days. All thanks to the people who volunteered into the study. Would it be nice to have even more? Sure. But at that scale, patterns start to emerge.

Yes. Any statistics buffs here who can tell me: Is 500k brits for 1 week as good as 5k brits for 100 weeks. Effectively with so much data aren't you getting a superposition anyway.

A superposition of?

In statistical mechanics there's a concept of "ensemble average" and its provable that if you have a system, the average state of the system over say a 100 realisations ("ensemble average") run for 1 second each, is equal to the the average of one system run for a 100 seconds - under some assumptions of course.

I don't know enough a about human biology to make a statement about whether any of those assumptions will hold true, but maybe someone else will.

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#152

Post by internet101010 »

t-3 wrote: post #134
thimabi wrote: post #87

I found the best way to ensure sleep regularity is by having a fixed wake-up time. If you don’t have one and you begin to set your alarm clock to early hours, the first weeks doing so will feel like hell. But eventually all will be worth it. The sleepiness during the day will disappear and, at night, your body will naturally want to get some rest early. Another strategy is to fill your day with deep work and exercise…

Alarms aren't foolproof though. I often shut them off in my sleep or sleep through them, so I have to keep the phone on the other side of the room AND change the alarm every week or two to prevent adaptation, and that still doesn't help if I can't fall asleep for whatever reason and end up sleeping through due to sheer exhaustion. What I've found that actually works well is alcohol; if I'm not tired at sleep-time, ta…

I set an additional alarm one hour before I need to wake up specifically so that I can get the feeling of going back to sleep. It has really helped.

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#153

Post by lazyeye »

thimabi wrote: post #87

I found the best way to ensure sleep regularity is by having a fixed wake-up time. If you don’t have one and you begin to set your alarm clock to early hours, the first weeks doing so will feel like hell. But eventually all will be worth it. The sleepiness during the day will disappear and, at night, your body will naturally want to get some rest early. Another strategy is to fill your day with deep work and exercise…

One thing I've done is create a "color clock" using a smart bulb that changes color based on a daily schedule. So at 8:00pm the bulb has a dim orange glow, this changes to dim red glow at 9pm and then turns off at 10pm (sleep time). Its a really nice relaxing way of ensuring a regular sleep pattern (no longer clock watching etc).

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#155

Post by noduerme »

vundercind wrote: post #121
dmurray wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Experiments where people aren't told what time it is end up with them gravitating towards a 25-26 hour day. So you're totally normal. Wikipedia [0] criticises these experiments and says they didn't account for electric light, which apparently lengthens the cycle. So to rephrase, people with any access whatsoever to electric light favour a 25-26 hour day. You're still totally normal, but it explains you may have bette…

I actually experimented with that. I allowed myself two candles, which I found was enough to read by and plenty for navigating my house. Soon, all night time electric lighting seemed batshit crazy. Dozens of times too bright. Of course we all can’t fucking sleep. It’s so wildly much brighter than necessary. I gave it up after a few weeks because it’s pretty much impossible to keep up if you’re ever around other peopl…

Weed gummies used to work like a charm for me, up until my late 30s, but in the past few years even the low-THC ones leave me extremely groggy the next day. Although I get a great sleep, it isn't worth it anymore for how long it takes me to come back to full function. I keep them around for emergencies when I need to go to sleep.

I keep my lights very low in the hours before I go to bed, and use candles, and mostly read books rather than electronic devices. But one thing I'd point out is that - I live fairly far north. At this time of the year, there is very little direct sunlight at all. Whole days can be as dark as 6am, and the sun will be setting before 5pm soon. There is a balance, in the winter, when without bright electric light you could never really wake up. And sometimes it feels like living on a space station, because if you're a night owl that's the only light you get. I've had modestly good results from using a "happy lamp" during the darkest days. Just pointing out that - although I agree with you about clamping down on carnival lights at night - there is an opposite extreme which can cause people to go into a sort of seasonal hibernation.

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#156

Post by makeitdouble »

benrapscallion wrote: post #72
Calavar wrote: post #13

> We aimed to assess the relationship of objectively measured sleep regularity with risk for all-cause mortality, and mortality from cardiometabolic causes and cancer, in a large cohort (N = 60 977) who wore accelerometer devices for 1 week. They look at one week of sleep data and then check mortality records about 10 to 15 years later. It's hard to argue a causative effect between one week of bad sleep and death pot…

That’s because this is in UK Biobank, a cohort of >500K Brits and collecting actually in such a large cohort is a miracle, let alone for multiple days. All thanks to the people who volunteered into the study. Would it be nice to have even more? Sure. But at that scale, patterns start to emerge.

An issue could be how people choose that week.

As you point out that's a multi day commitment, and if part of the volunteers either adjust the timing of the experiments to match specific weeks (e.g. parents choosing school vacations), or adjust their schedule accordingly, what is measured becomes fundamentally different in nature to what measuring longer periods would bring.

I'm with you on how we don't have a choice regarding to the quality of the study, it's just crazy hard to get any data at scale. But we can look at it as a very flawed "best of what we can do" and not take the patterns too seriously.

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#157

Post by joe_the_user »

Calavar wrote: post #13

> We aimed to assess the relationship of objectively measured sleep regularity with risk for all-cause mortality, and mortality from cardiometabolic causes and cancer, in a large cohort (N = 60 977) who wore accelerometer devices for 1 week. They look at one week of sleep data and then check mortality records about 10 to 15 years later. It's hard to argue a causative effect between one week of bad sleep and death pot…

The other problem is that irregular sleep may correlate with lower income, which correlates with a lot of things that lower life expectancy.

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#158

Post by hombre_fatal »

thimabi wrote: post #87

I found the best way to ensure sleep regularity is by having a fixed wake-up time. If you don’t have one and you begin to set your alarm clock to early hours, the first weeks doing so will feel like hell. But eventually all will be worth it. The sleepiness during the day will disappear and, at night, your body will naturally want to get some rest early. Another strategy is to fill your day with deep work and exercise…

Most people have to wake up at a fixed time for work and school their entire lives. I don't think that's what sleep hinges on, else everyone would have good regularity and we'd take it for granted.

It's your behavior and attitude towards going to bed.

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#159

Post by makeitdouble »

thimabi wrote: post #87

I found the best way to ensure sleep regularity is by having a fixed wake-up time. If you don’t have one and you begin to set your alarm clock to early hours, the first weeks doing so will feel like hell. But eventually all will be worth it. The sleepiness during the day will disappear and, at night, your body will naturally want to get some rest early. Another strategy is to fill your day with deep work and exercise…

For people failing for a long time at fixed wake-up schedules or still feeling like shit after months of doing it: giving up is fine, and it frees you to explore what works for you.

It might change depending on the seasons, and you might more or less sleep depending on what you're doing at that time.

Waking up at the same damn hour everyday to deal with my kid's school was an utter pain for years, and I got in a better health and shape once I could adjust depending on my daily condition.

It still have a set of fixed alarms, but regularly ignore the first ones as needed, and only wake no-matter-what for the last one for my job. I heard from other coworkers doing the same, and it was a game-changer for most of us.

Re: Sleep regularity is a stronger predictor of mortality than sleep duration (2023)

#160

Post by noduerme »

deprecative wrote: post #35
noduerme wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hah. I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day. I was going to write that but it seemed like too much to explain. As I go to bed later and later, eventually I find myself awake past sunrise, which is usually the day when I'll intentionally have a short sleep and snap back to an early bedtime that night. Kids would definitely screw up this aspect of my lifestyle lol. But kids give you immortalit…

Just as a secondary data point. Without medication I have about a 32:12 hour cycle. Up for at least 30 hours and sleeping for about 12. I can function on 5 but I'm grumpy about it for a while. Always been that way. Completely inverted as well. Up all night and my body tries to convince me to sleep during the day but I'm just not able to for another twelve hours. I got fired from several jobs because of it. My folks w…

Hey, I feel that. Lots of people think I'm a flake. And I use the word "inverted" frequently to describe my state to my friends/girlfriend/clients when it gets too far outside social norms ;)

Just a piece of unsolicited advice: I learned to make a virtue out of it. I'm a solo software dev and I have to maintain big pieces of code that run 24/7. Well, my virtue is that I've been available 24/7 to my clients for the last 20 years. And one of the results of that has been that they've never abandoned me and gone to larger companies to deal with software issues. My own schedule is so variable, it doesn't really matter if I'm asleep or awake or what time zone they're in; if it's not urgent, it goes into my inbox, but if it's urgent, I usually answer the phone immediately. Part of this has been adding layers of support forms so I don't have to wake up to every phone call. But the people who have my cell number get through right away.

The result of that is that I basically get paid $300 every time I have to wake up, which is soul-soothing enough to prevent me from being angry. And the rest of the time I can sleep whenever I feel like it.

Being on a 32:12 hour cycle could have massive rewards. Clients are extremely appreciative, especially if you break your sleep for something important. Like, don't be afraid to tell your clients about your sleep cycle. Getting through admitting that was probably the biggest breakthrough of my career. My girlfriend loves that I'm still up working and make her breakfast at 4am when she's headed for work some days, or make her dinner when she comes home at night others. It's always a surprise, I tell her. You just have to find people who appreciate the energy you bring.

Yes, the "straight world" of people with 9-5 jobs and kids absolutely abhors this lifestyle and thinks it's irresponsible and flakey. But then again, they don't get paid $300 for waking up in the middle of the day ;) My friends (and girlfriends) are lyft drivers, waiters, coders, night shift workers, and other people who spurn daylight society. We are legion.

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