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Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

theguardian.com

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Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#151
post #116

Empirically a monkey did already creat the works of Shakespeare in a mere 13billion years. This is the time it took for the universe to form, earth to evolve to create a monkey that could write all those words down. The entire process from start to finish is way more complicated and random than anyone typing 26 character randomly into the keyboard. But I guess we are talking about uniform distributions here.

This sequence replaces an infinite God with ~infinite time and then draws the wrong conclusion.

You're replacing a hypothetical situation meant to illustrustrate mathematics with something else. The monkeys don't eat, evolve, age, conspire, have agendas or agency, they type randomly as a means to invoke visual imagery of a monkey slamming it's hands down ignorantly on a typewriter. It's chaotic slamming is the "input" that gets eventually distributed in different ways, one of which, if given enough time, will be identical to shakespeare.

Assuming implications to theology or genetic sequencing where none were given is a reflection of your ability to handle rational discussion of the material.

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#152
post #91

What kind of "study" would this even be? I thought the point of the infinite monkey thing was to talk about regular distributions and eventualities of every possible string showing up. I don't think anyone claimed that any relatively-long string would show up in any reasonable amount of time necessarily, but it's kind of a bizarre assertion to make. It's sort of like stating the runtime efficiency of a Bogosort; the…

I think it is even worse: infinite instances of bogosort are 100% guarantueed to finish instantly, because we are running in parallel here and the ones that are unbounded don't matter at all when at least one of then gets it right. And given the fact that there is a non-zero chance of bogosort getting it right first try, means it there are infinite bogosort instances getting it right first try.

This is also true for the infinite typing monkeys: one of them is getting it right by chance, unless that chance is 0 (and it isn't).

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

pedantry: that monkey was ~250 years before keyboards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typewriter#Hansen_Writing_Ball

Hurdy gurdys with keyboards have been around long before then.

If you try to write Shakespeare with hurdy-gurdy keys, you're going to get slightly abridged versions, like that famous tragedy A ad Ceaa, or the comedy Ced f E.

Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHxfOZH8cew

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#154
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that probability could plausibly be zero.

On an infinite scale it seems unlikely that the probability of anything is actually zero Near zero, certainly, but not actually zero

I think the number of things that are impossible is far greater than the number of things that are possible, even in an infinite universe.

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Mind you, even if a beneficient mutation occurs, it is still not guaranteed to be passed onto the next generation. It would have to randomly occur over and over again. Why would it have to re-occur again and again? If the mutation is beneficial to the reproductive success of an organism, by definition their mutation will be passed on with no need for it to occur again by chance. The percentage of the population with…

> Why would it have to re-occur again and again? If the mutation is beneficial to the reproductive success of an organism, by definition their mutation will be passed on with no need for it to occur again by chance. Are you certain this is correct? An individual with a genetic mutation does not necessarily pass it down to its offspring, even if it was beneficial, in my understanding. So there is a probability p of pa…

>Are you certain this is correct? An individual with a genetic mutation does not necessarily pass it down to its offspring, even if it was beneficial, in my understanding. So there is a probability p of passing it down and 1-p of not doing so.

That value for p is still going to be considerably greater for the gene to be passed on than the probability of that gene arising again randomly through mutation though. Consider the example of eye colour for example, chances are two brown-eyed parents are going to have brown-eyed children too - certainly a greater probability than a random mutation will intervene to make their eyes purple.

>Depends which subarea of evolution. No actual speciation based on random mutation has ever been observed (let alone ones predicted by evolution) as far as I'm aware.

There have been empirical studies of species separating and the mosquitoes on the London Underground are a good example, surface-dwelling mosquitoes cannot interbreed with those from the tunnels. At any rate it's actually quite a difficult thing to study since we're not looking at a binary situation of 'they have gene x now and therefore they're a separate species', that's not how evolution works and I don't think any biologist would claim this to be the case. At the end of the day species are human classifications made based on scientific observation rather than perfect formal categories, we define a species to be that which cannot interbreed with another and produce fertile offspring but that's our classification not nature's - species diverge gradually after taking many different evolutionary paths rather than there being a binary instant they're separate from each-other. The classification of species can only ever be so good because it's attempting to draw a fixed line on a moving canvas.

I think when arguing against the theory of evolution it's tempting to make arguments along the lines that each species is assigned some kind of intangible Platonic form towards which evolution must work but this isn't the case at all, there's no law of nature that says one species has to take x form and another must take y form. There's no Platonic cat which makes a cat a cat rather than a dog or a goldfish, a cat is merely one of the many possible organisms that can fill the ecological niche that cats occupy; and we classify them with our imperfect system of biological classification. I think it's putting the cart before the horse to essentially say that evolution is a flawed theory because our system of categorising species doesn't have the resolution to capture the exact moment species diverge from each-other.

>Micro-evolution or expression of previously not-expressed but already present genes is a different topic, and not something I have issues with.

Micro-evolution versus macro-evolution is a bit of an old canard in my opinion, the idea that they're separate processes rather than a continuum of the same process doesn't really exist outside of creationism which in my opinion is a much more difficult theory of our origins to argue than evolution. I spent some of my early life as a creationist so I'm not unfamiliar with its nuances, but personally I'm yet to hear a creationist argument that is particularly compelling to people who aren't already invested in the existence of a Creator rather than approaching the subject neutrally.

> All I say is evolution is at best insufficient to explain us. And we haven't even touched consciousness.

Consciousness is definitely a much more interesting problem in my opinion, and there's definitely no good theories of consciousness yet as far as I'm concerned. I think the notion of qualia in particular poses a lot of difficulties for a purely materialistic understanding of consciousness for example.

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#156
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper doesn’t say that either. They only call the original theorem misleading. I understood that their point is the same as yours - that infinity won’t happen in a finite time period. > The long-established result of the Infinite Monkeys Theorem is correct, but misleading. > Non-trivial text generation during the lifespan of our universe is almost certainly impossible. > The Finite Monkeys case shows there will n…

I don’t see how the original is misleading. The word “infinite” isn’t hidden or anything… unless the definition of infinite is misleading but I think it’s use here is pretty clear.

“Infinity” on its own is clear, but in tandem with monkeys it could get confusing.

If you remember that a monkey here is also a theoretical construct then I guess all is fine. But otherwise monkeys need at least a universe to function and that is finite.

Perhaps it would have been seen as less confusing if it was a demon[1] that enters random letters instead.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demon_(thought_experiment)

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#157

I thought the saying was “infinite monkeys..” and in that case you would get the full works of Shakespeare immediately. With an infinite amount of time and one monkey you’d get the full works of Shakespeare in every language supported by the typewriter any number of times in a row you wished. In fact, you’d get anything you wanted as long as the probability was > 0 Edit: after walking my dogs, isn’t the probability o…

And wouldn't you also get the next work Shakespeare would have written if he hadn't died/retired first? Fun to consider.

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#158
post #95
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the theorem is meant to explain what can happen in the universe over long time scales. The point is that there isn't enough time in the universe for all the random stuff to happen that scientists pin on random chance. The theorem was memorable, but a cop out.

> Yes, but the theorem is meant to explain what can happen in the universe over long time scales. I never understood it that way. I always interpreted it as a fun way to explain the mathematical truth that no matter how low a probability is, as long as it is technically above 0, the event it describes WILL eventually occur given enough time/trials/etc. I can't see anybody ever interpreting it as a statement about the…

> Just like I don't think anybody truly believes that flipping a real coin with non-identical sides (such as every currency coin I've ever used) must have EXACTLY 50% probability of landing on either side.

That's a nice thought, but that's giving the average person too much credit when it comes to probability. In my experience, most people's understanding of probability is very poor. For example, few people truly understand the concept of independent events.

Most people believe that after flipping 10 heads in a row, the probability of tails on the next flip is much higher.

I'm sure you could convince a rational individual that the assymetry of the coin makes 50/50 impossible. But I doubt that the average person has ever really considered it.

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#159
post #86

They have arbitrarily shifted the goal posts to fit their conclusion: > working out that even if all the chimpanzees in the world were given the entire lifespan of the universe, they would “almost certainly” never Who assumed the original adage had the constraint of the universe’s lifetime.

Just read the paper directly: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277318632... . They do no such thing.

Yes, and no…

> Here, we consider the Finite Monkeys Theorem and look at the probability of a given string being typed by one of a finite number of monkeys within a finite time allocation consistent with estimates for the lifespan of our universe

But point taken, the article is sensationalizing.

Re: Universe would die before monkey with keyboard writes Shakespeare, study finds

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A work of Shakespeare is a single specific target, that's why it takes so long to hit it - one letter out doesn't cut it. DNA meanwhile is a general purpose animal kit that has many billions of 'correct answers'. It's not about sophistication.

it's not about the absolute number of correct answers it's about the ratio of valid / invalid answers which is somewhere very close to 0

[citation needed]

What are the numbers?

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