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The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#151

Post by ivan_gammel »

gaoshan wrote: post #30

The labeling of things in museums as "stolen" is lacking, IMO. In some cases, yes... straight up looted items are in museums. In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) if they had not been taken and put in museums outside of the places where they originated. Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities b…

I like how museums in Berlin look at this problem. Once I visited an exhibition that was fully dedicated to provenance research and it did label some items, although with less straightforward language (I don’t remember seeing the word „stolen“). https://www.smb.museum/en/research/provenance-research/

And of course this has happened: https://www.smb.museum/en/museums-institutions/ethnologische...

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#152

Post by jbjbjbjb »

luaybs wrote: post #140

The amount of pro-colonial sentiment in the thread here is baffling. The people that were colonized and stolen from have the right to do whatever they want with these artifacts, even if you believe they may not have the means, or will sell them to private collectors.

Why not just accept the situation as part of the ebb and flow of history? They certainly weren’t the first empires in history. I think a lot of the objection is more about nationalistic sentiment than anything else and I don’t feel it needs to be done to reclaim cultural heritage.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#153

Post by pie420 »

isodev wrote: post #116
returningfory2 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take an extreme hypothetical. Suppose in the 1500s the government of Spain had taken some artifacts relating to the indigenous peoples of New Mexico. Would the government of the United States really be the rightful owner of these artifacts? For other countries it's not quite as extreme, but in general the link between ancient culture in place X and modern country in place X is less strong than people try to make out.

I don’t see the controversy of your example because since there was no UNESCO and other global agreements in the 1500s, the indigenous people of this area are still around and so it would be the local Native American tribes that can have a legitimate claim on their heritage.

Lots of native american tribes committed genocide and destroyed other tribes. If Tribe A made some artifacts, and then was genocided out of existence by Tribe B, which was then conquered by the Tribe C (USA). Would you want Tribe B to have ownership of the artifacts of tribe B?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#154

Post by screye »

gaoshan wrote: post #30

The labeling of things in museums as "stolen" is lacking, IMO. In some cases, yes... straight up looted items are in museums. In other cases, though, the items could easily have ended up lost to time (or political, economic, social turmoil) if they had not been taken and put in museums outside of the places where they originated. Additionally some of these places would not have had the means to care for antiquities b…

> political, economic, social turmoil

I can see a happy medium, where (ex)colonizers return artifacts to neutral safe harbor near the home country.

If Indonesia is unstable or if museums don't meet standards, then let artifacts be held in Australia. If Egypt is too unstable, then have the artifacts returned to Dubai. With the frequency of 'just stop oil' vandalism, I'm not sure if the west is the safest place for these artifacts anyway.

Alternatively, national embassies also make for great safe harbor. This way the artifacts are nominally returned to the home country, without needing to cross borders or jeopardizing the artifact's safety.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#155

Post by makeitdouble »

ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #139
makeitdouble wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Britain

thanks for the link but still lost.

It looks incredibly simple and clear to me, so I'm pretty curious about what is getting you lost, if you'd be inclined to expand.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#156

Post by INTPenis »

jahewson wrote: post #110
INTPenis wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just learned about how in 1890 a ship filled with 19.5 tons of unwrapped cat mummies sailed from Alexandria to Liverpool, and the cargo was sold mostly as fertilizer. Now I also learned that Egyptian authorities have since found even more mummified cats, perhaps even millions. But it's still a very striking example of the plundering mentality of the big naval powers. https://www.bbc.com/reel/video/p0jr4z6k/why-tonn…

That’s amazing. I’d heard of mummies being used for paint [1] but fertilizer is a new one. To be fair it’s not “plundering” because they purchased them from an Egyptian farmer who discovered them on his land. Very much a two party activity. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mummy_brown

It's a complete disregard of a nation's heritage. Even if Egyptians were less focused on their legacy in the 19th century, they are today and have the means to preserve it now.

To be semantic it's not plundering, even slaves were purchased from locals.

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#157

Post by mihaic »

jntun wrote: post #99
mihaic wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These museums didn't just pop into place for the artifacts to reside in; they were built to show off their spoils. You have a very cynical and skewed view of things. These museums were built specifically for the public good, to show off things that were of no interest in their original countries at that time. The British didn't say they wanted to build public museums to increase tourism, that came later as an unint…

> to show off things that were of no interest in their original countries at that time You have a very cynical and skewed view of things.

Please tell me how I'm wrong with arguments.

Was anyone in the Mesopotamian area interested about cuneiform tablets a century ago? Where locals doing any archeological digs at Ur or Uruk?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#158

Post by mihaic »

senderista wrote: post #142
mihaic wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of these third world countries also have some artefacts on their soil as well. Do they need literally all of them, and you'd have to visit the globe to see international artefacts? The most famous ones, like the Rosetta Stone, only became famous from their usage by Western archeologists. As for London being expensive, well visiting any foreign country is expensive by non-natives. At least in London you can get a…

Modern Greeks and Egyptians have significant genetic and cultural continuity with the ancient peoples of those regions. (No, the Arabs did not displace the Egyptians.)

Genetic continuity, sure. But I can't see any cultural continuity at all. Why do you see one?

Re: The Netherlands has returned some stolen artifacts to Indonesia

#159

Post by kelipso »

jogjayr wrote: post #130
matwood wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What place is easier for 'most of the world' to visit?

Singapore allows visa-free travel to passport holders from 159 countries + many more with an e-visa or visa on arrival. The UK allows only 83 countries' passport holders visa-free. I picked Singapore at random. Probably some other country is even more visitor-friendly. https://embassies.net/singapore-visa-exemption https://embassies.net/united-kingdom-visa-exemption

Though you got lucky with Singapore, it is famously known to have the strongest passport and visa-free agreements are usually reciprocal.
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