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Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

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Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like using a hammer to turn a screw and calling it useless. To envision what a next generation model bound by the same constraints should do, it'd be to recognize that it can't count tokens and use code access to write code that solves the strawberry problem without prompting. Asked to count cells it'd be a model that could write and execute OpenCV tasks. Or to go a step further, be a multimodal model that can s…

> To envision what a next generation model bound by the same constraints should do, it'd be to recognize that it can't count tokens and use code access to write code that solves the strawberry problem without prompting. The VQA problems I'm describing can be solved seemingly in one case but not combined with counting. Counting is fundamentally challenging for sort of unknown reasons, or perhaps known to the very best…

I don't get what you mean by "unknown reasons", we understand that counting tokens requires a type of introspection transformer models can't do while operating on tokens.

What I described is tried, and works, but the models are still not cheap/fast/reliable enough to always do what I described for every query.

The difference between what I described and directly asking the model to count is that we know the models can get cheaper, faster, and more reliable at what I described without any earth shattering discoveries

Like I don't see any reason why GPT 10 will ever be able to count how many letters there are in the word strawberry without a complete paradigm shift in model building... but going from GPT 3 to GPT 4 we already got a model that can always write the dead simple code required to count it out, and the models that can do so are already getting cheaper and faster every few months without any crazy discoveries.

Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To envision what a next generation model bound by the same constraints should do, it'd be to recognize that it can't count tokens and use code access to write code that solves the strawberry problem without prompting. The VQA problems I'm describing can be solved seemingly in one case but not combined with counting. Counting is fundamentally challenging for sort of unknown reasons, or perhaps known to the very best…

I don't get what you mean by "unknown reasons", we understand that counting tokens requires a type of introspection transformer models can't do while operating on tokens. What I described is tried, and works, but the models are still not cheap/fast/reliable enough to always do what I described for every query. The difference between what I described and directly asking the model to count is that we know the models ca…

> What I described is tried, and works

Maybe they should make you Chief Scientist at OpenAI, I hear the position is open.

Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#153
post #113
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Big models take up more VRAM just to have the weights sitting around hot in memory, yes. But running two concurrent inferences on the same hot model, doesn't require that you have two full copies of the model in memory. You only need two full copies of the model's "state" (the vector that serves as the output of layer N and the input of layer N+1, and the pool of active low-cardinality matrix-temporaries used to batc…

> they're attempting to make a "smart compressor" that minimizes the message-length of the compressed message [i.e. the state] by increasing the information embedded in the compressor itself [i.e. the model.]) And this seems to work! These bigger models can do more with less state, thereby allowing many more "cheap" inferences to run on single nodes. Not sure I follow. CoT and go over length of the states is a relati…

What I'm talking about here is the fact that you need a longer + multi-shot prompt to get a dumber model to do the same thing a smarter model will do with a shorter + zero-shot prompt.

Pretend for a moment that Transformers don't actually have context-size limits (a "spherical cow" model of inference.) In this mental model, you can make a small, dumb model arbitrarily smarter — potentially matching the quality of much larger, smarter models — by providing all the information and associations it needs "at runtime."

It's just that the sheer amount of prompting required to get a dumb model to act like a smart model, goes up superlinearly vs. the marginal increase in intelligence. And since (for now) the compute costs scale quadratically with the prompt size, you would quickly hit resource limits in trying to do this. To have a 10b model act like a 405b model, you'd either need an inordinate amount of time per inference-step — or, for a more interesting comparison, an amount of parallel GPU hardware (VRAM to hold state, and GPU-core-compute-seconds) that in both dimensions would far exceed the amount required to host inference of the 405b model.

(This superlinear relationship still holds with context-size limits in place; you just can only do the "make the dumb model smarter with a good prompt" experiment on roughly same-order-of-magnitude-sized models [e.g. 3b vs 7b] — as a 3b really couldn't "act as" anything above 7b, without a prompt that far exceeds its context-size limit — and so, in practice, you can't calculate enough of the ramp at once to fit a curve to it.)

The obvious corollary to this, is that by increasing model size (in a way that keeps more useful training around, retains intelligence, etc), you decrease the required resource consumption to compute at a fixed level of intelligence, and that this decrease scales superlinearly.

This dynamic explains everything current Inference-as-a-Service providers do.

It explains why they they are all seeking to develop their own increasingly-large models — they want, as much as possible, to get their models to achieve better results with less prompting, in fewer inference steps, and in proportionately cheaper inference steps — as these all increase their economies of scale, by decreasing the compute and memory requirements per concurrent inference call.

And it explains why they charge users for queries by the input/output token, not by the compute-second. To them, "intelligent responses" are the value they provide; while "(prompt size + output size) x (number of inference steps)" is the overhead cost of providing that value, that they want to minimize. A per-token pricing structure does several things:

• most obviously, as with any well-thought-out SaaS business model, it pushes the overhead costs onto the customer, so that customers are always paying for their own costs.

• it therefore disincentivizes users from sending prompts that are any longer than necessary (i.e. it incentivizes attempting to "pare down" your prompt until it's working just well enough)

• and it incentivizes users to choose their smarter models, despite the higher costs per token, as these models will achieve the same result with a shorter prompt; will require fewer retries (= wasted tokens) to give a good result; can "say more" in fewer tokens by focusing in on the spirit of the question rather than rambling; and require less CoT-like "thinking out loud" steps to arrive at correct conclusions.

• it also incentivizes the company to put effort into R&D work to minimize per-token overhead, to increase profitability per token. (Just like e.g. Amazon is incentivized to optimize the per-request overhead of S3, to increase the profitability per call.)

• and, most cynically, it locks in their customers, by getting them to rely on building AI agents that send minimal prompts and expect useful + accurate + succinct output; where you can only achieve that with these huge models, which in turn can only run on the huge vertically-scaled cluster nodes these Inference-aaS providers run. The people who've built working products on top of these Inference-aaS providers can't meaningfully threaten to switch away to "commodity" hosted open-source-model Inference-aaS providers (e.g RunPod/Vast/etc) — as nobody but the few largest players can host models of this size.

(Fun tangent: why was it not an existential mistake for Meta to open-source Llama 3.1 405b? Because nobody but their direct major competitors in the Inference-aaS space have compute shaped the right way to run that kind of model at scale; and those few companies all have their own huge models they're already invested in, so they don't even care!)

Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs can clearly solve problems that computers up to now couldn't. They can't solve all problems and this should definitely be a cautionary note to anyone who wants to use them as an artificial general intelligence, but this take seems no different to someone looking at a punchcard computer and going, it can't even recognize typos or categorize images, what good is this? We've already had human computers who can do e…

> going, it can't even recognize typos or categorize images, what good is this? No one said that LLMs aren’t good for anything. I pointed out — in response to another poster downplaying mention of a well-known and undisputed limitation that LLMs often have — that it is valid to consider these well-known and undisputed limitations if one is considering using them for anything other than a toy. It is downright silly to…

I think somehow there were a series of miscommunications. This kind of sub token manipulation task is hard for an LLM for somewhat predictable reasons. Knowing those limitations are important, but don't come up too often in practical circumstances. Outside of contrived examples counting the number of letters in a long word is pretty rare.

I took your response to be arguing against a message I'd read to be saying something like the above. Especially when you basically seemed to be saying that limitations like this are important in everything but toy applications. It's uninteresting because it doesn't point towards larger problems with their use in the kind of application they're being used for and are intended for unlike prompts that point to weakness in logic or propensity to hallucinate.

Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get what you mean by "unknown reasons", we understand that counting tokens requires a type of introspection transformer models can't do while operating on tokens. What I described is tried, and works, but the models are still not cheap/fast/reliable enough to always do what I described for every query. The difference between what I described and directly asking the model to count is that we know the models ca…

> What I described is tried, and works Maybe they should make you Chief Scientist at OpenAI, I hear the position is open.

Don't get pissy with me because you decided to talk about something you don't understand the basics of.

Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So how many 1 bits are in strawberry? Thats about the same kind of question, given that LLMs see tokens instead of characters, and we see characters instead of bits.

Do you sincerely think the folks training these models haven't tried alternative tokenizations?

Of course they have, I assume counting letters in words wasn't a priority for them.

Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counting shit, like cells, peaks in signals, people, inventory, fingers, and votes, is hard, tedious and important to business and life, so I don’t know dude, it seems like a great benchmark to me. Countless posts wasted on denying this simple and obvious fact.

Not being able to "do math" is an obvious, IMO uninteresting limitation of how LLMs inherently work, and the more advanced models have already figured out good solutions. E.g. while an LLM may stumble on "How many R's are in Strawberry", at this point any code model can easily correctly implement "write me a program in Python that counts the number of R's in strawberry". GPT 3 would essentially always fail on higher…

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Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#158
post #153
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they're attempting to make a "smart compressor" that minimizes the message-length of the compressed message [i.e. the state] by increasing the information embedded in the compressor itself [i.e. the model.]) And this seems to work! These bigger models can do more with less state, thereby allowing many more "cheap" inferences to run on single nodes. Not sure I follow. CoT and go over length of the states is a relati…

What I'm talking about here is the fact that you need a longer + multi-shot prompt to get a dumber model to do the same thing a smarter model will do with a shorter + zero-shot prompt. Pretend for a moment that Transformers don't actually have context-size limits (a "spherical cow" model of inference.) In this mental model, you can make a small, dumb model arbitrarily smarter — potentially matching the quality of muc…

Interesting. Though it seems like they are still incentivized to distill their bigger models downward for more tokens/s.

Re: Liquid Foundation Models: Our First Series of Generative AI Models

#159
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All it speaks to is that tokenization is weird and introduces artifacts to LLM performance. Counting letters is a trivial task when you're staring at words on a screen. It's much harder when you're perceiving vectors based on parts of words. The fact that LLMs find certain things easier/harder than humans is completely unsurprising, and there are much more interesting benchmarks to use to compare one LLM to another.

Counting shit, like cells, peaks in signals, people, inventory, fingers, and votes, is hard, tedious and important to business and life, so I don’t know dude, it seems like a great benchmark to me. Countless posts wasted on denying this simple and obvious fact.

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