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Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

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Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#151
post #125
post #6

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company? If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially dis…

https://www.getnexar.com/

Just tossing a product link into the discussion without any context isn't overly useful - why are you recommending (or are you) and why should I be clicking on that?

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#152
post #6

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company? If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially dis…

Setting aside the obvious dystopian next steps, I think the main problem with automated traffic law enforcement is that our laws are quite bad in the sense that they rely on enforcement being loose and somewhat subjective to even work at all. The speeds on various roads, the timing of traffic lights, the places one can park and for how long, etc, are not carefully planned or thought out enough to actually work if everyone were to strictly adhere to them. It all works because lots of people can briefly park in illegal places, choose reasonable times to speed, or reasonable moments to use the shoulder to go around obstructions, etc.

Obviously you capture some craziness on the margin that you want to capture, but also on the margin is the fudging that makes the whole thing work at all.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#154
post #6

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company? If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially dis…

I doubt it'd tell them any more than they already know. These drivers tend to have been given citations already. The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine. NYC already has something like this for people who catch too-long idling trucks and photograph/video record it.

> The real money would be in giving civilians whose footage leads to a successful prosecution for moving violations a percentage of the fine.

I've heard lots of talk of civil war in this country, but this is the first serious plan I've seen for how to start one.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#155
post #6

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company? If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially dis…

In Switzerland it would be the law preventing that. Running ML on public footage of people who did not consent is a huge no-no. Dashcams are already a problem and technically illegal although tolerated. The footage can't generally be used on court.

Swiss privacy law is absolutely insane to me both for the protection it provides (good) but also for the protection it provides(bad). I guess all tools are weapons in the right hands.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#156
post #36

We've seen this type of thing happen with Ring, where the police want video from people's private cameras. Do police have the legal right to access/take people's private property like this? I thought the 4th amendment of the constitution protected against unreasonable searches and seizures?

In general, if there's a record of something which was captured in the course of ordinary business which is relevant as evidence in a court matter (such as the recording of your Ring camera), and parties to proceedings have good reason to believe you have this record, then they can generally get a subpoena issued to compel you to produce it for the court. This applies to both the prosecution and the defense (both criminal and civil).

The protection against "unreasonable" search and seizure comes in the form of the fact the requesting party has to convince the court (usually the registry) that there is reasonable grounds before they will issue a subpoena.

As an investigative matter (prior to any charges, court listings, and subpoenas), it is possible to get a search warrant including for evidence held by 3rd parties who aren't suspected of anything. Again, police don't have carte blanche. They need to convince a judicial officer of some sort that there is reasonable grounds before a warrant will be issued.

There are ways to challenge a warrant/subpoena. Sometimes a successful challenge only serves to make the evidence inadmissible but doesn't prevent the search in the first place (aka "you can beat the ticket but you can't beat the ride).

All that said, some judges / courts tend to practically be a rubber stamp for whatever warrant / subpoena the police want. Others actually do their job. It ain't perfect, but if you can think of a better system, I'd love to hear it.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#157
post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems like if it’s technically possible, it will happen, and we can’t stop technological progress. ‘The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race. They have greatly increased the life-expectancy of those of us who live in “advanced” countries, but they have destabilized society, have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread p…

I don’t know. People have been living without reliable access to food and potable water, not even talking about sore deformations on their faces, for a thousand years. But somehow their lives were fulfilling?

Yeah, I don’t see many of the people criticizing the Industrial Revolution opting into pre-industrial existences. I’m pretty minimalist, and I’ve grown up around the Amish and even they prefer to avail themselves of technology where they can. I think there’s a fair amount of romanticizing about a pre-industrial lifestyle. This obviously isn’t to argue that we should all live maximally consumerist lifestyles; I don’t think that’s true either.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#158
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incidental and systemic benefits of the recordings are exciting to people and celebrated with stories. The hazards of this constant "pollution" of data — how it is slowly changing our society, our economy, our humanity — is harder to quantify or build opposition to. It's a bit like climate change. Slow, invisible poison.

s/poison/vitamin/ and you'll be happier.

I mean, yes, we'd like to replace poison with vitamins, but that requires some serious changes.

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#159
post #6

Genuine question: What is stopping some small percent of drivers from installing cameras and using ML to identify cars driving dangerously (e.g. speeding, running reds, changing multiple lanes at once, etc.), and when their license plate is identifiable, finding and informing their insurance company? If even a small subset of users did this, and insurers did something with this information, it would substantially dis…

Here in the UK, the police actively encourage the public to submit dashcam footage of motoring offences.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-64386371

https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/news/driving-1/2021-02/one-in-f...

Re: Did your car witness a crime? Bay Area police may be coming for your Tesla

#160
post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The incidental and systemic benefits of the recordings are exciting to people and celebrated with stories. The hazards of this constant "pollution" of data — how it is slowly changing our society, our economy, our humanity — is harder to quantify or build opposition to. It's a bit like climate change. Slow, invisible poison.

s/poison/vitamin/ and you'll be happier.

Double plus good idea, fine chap!
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