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Artificial intelligence is losing hype

economist.com

151–160 of 814 posts

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#151
The OP is not about AI as a field of research. It's about whether the gobs of money invested in "AI" products and services in recent years, fueled by hype and FOMO, will earn a return, and whether we are approaching the bust of a classic boom-bust over-investment cycle.

Seemingly every non-tech company in the world has been trying to figure out an "AI strategy," driven by hype and FOMO, but most corporate executives have no clue as to what they're doing or ought to be doing. They are spending money on poorly thought-out ideas.

Meanwhile, every tech company providing "AI services" has been spending money like a drunken sailor, fueled by hype and FOMO. None of these AI services are generating enough revenue to cover the cost of development, training, or even, in many cases, inference.

Nvidia, the dominant software-plus-hardware platform (CUDA is a big deal), appears to be the only financial beneficiary of all this hype and FOMO.

According to the OP, the business of "AI" is losing hype, suggesting we're approaching a bust.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#152

Which is great, the internet exploded when TV stopped talking about "the internet" and everyone just used it.

Right, I forgot that is why internet became popular /s

You confuse causality with correlation, a common mistake.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#153

I've trained as a neuroscientist and written a book about consciousness. I've worked in machine learning and built products for over 20 years and now use AI a fair bit in the ed-tech work we do. So I've seen how the field has progressed and also have been able to look at it from a perspective most AI/engineering people don't -- what does this artificial intelligence look like when compared to biological intelligence.…

I've worked in AI for the past 30 years and have seen enthusiasm as robust as yours go bust before. Just because some kinds of narrow AI have done extraordinarily well -- namely those tasks that recognize patterns using connections between FSMs -- does not mean that same mechanisms will continue to scale up to human-level cognition, much less exceed it any time soon. The breakthroughs where deep AI have excelled -- o…

If you look at AI history there is often fairly steady progress in a given skill area for example chess programs improved in a steady way on ELO scores and you could project pretty well the future by drawing a line on a graph. Similarly large language models seem to be progressing from toddler like to high school student like (now) to PhD like - shortly. There are skills AI are still fairly bad at like the higher level reasoning you mention, and in robot form being able to pop to the shops to get some groceries say but I get the impression those are also improving in a steady way and it won't be so long.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#154
post #23
post #15

To be honest, I was surprised by ChatGPT. I didn’t think we were close. We are running out of textual data now to train on… so now they have switched to VIDEO. Geez now they can train on all the VIDEOS on the internet. And when they finally get bots working, they will have limitless streams of TACTILE data… Writing it off as the next fad seems fun. But to be honest, I was shocked by what openai did the first time. So…

> Seriously I am a 2x coder compared to what I was because of this. You probably shouldn't advertise that.

2x loc!

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#155

I've trained as a neuroscientist and written a book about consciousness. I've worked in machine learning and built products for over 20 years and now use AI a fair bit in the ed-tech work we do. So I've seen how the field has progressed and also have been able to look at it from a perspective most AI/engineering people don't -- what does this artificial intelligence look like when compared to biological intelligence.…

When Weizenbaum demonstrated Eliza to his colleagues, some thought there was an intelligent consciousness at the heart of it. Few even continued to believe this after they were shown the source code, which they were able to read and understand. Human consciousness is full of biases and the most advanced AI cannot reliably determine which of two floats is bigger or even solve really simple logic puzzles for little kid…

While it is true that LLM’s lack agency and have many weaknesses, they form a critical part of what machine learning has lacked until transformers became all of the rage.

The things that LLM’s are bad at are largely solved problems using much simpler technology. There is no reason that LLM’s have to be the only component in an intelligent agent. Biological brains have Specialized structures for specialized tasks like arithmetic. The solution is probably integration of LLMs as a part of a composite system that includes database storage, a code execution environment, and multiple agents to form a goal directed posit - evaluate loop.

I’ve had pretty remarkable success with this architecture running on 12b models and I’m a nobody with no resources.

LLM’s by themselves just come up with the first thing that crosses their”mind”. It shouldn’t be surprising that the very first unfiltered guess about a solution might be suboptimal.

There is a vast amount of knowledge embedded in our cultural matrix, and a lot of that is captured in the common crawl and other datasets.llms are like a search engine for that data , based on meaning rather than semantics.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#156
post #117
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you using AI to double your coding productivity? Are you using ChatGPT, or Claude, or GitHub Copilot? I am an AI-skeptic, so I am curious here. Thanks!

Ok I jumped on copilot when it first came out so I have been using it for a long time. Since I have been using it so long, I have a really good intuition of what it is “thinking” in every scenario and a pretty good idea of what it can do for me. So that helps me get more use out of it. So for example one of the projects I’m doing now is a flutter project - my first one. So I don’t remember all the widgets. But I just…

I don't think you need an LLM just to parse class properties and turn them into a map. Not that familiar with Dart, but that's the kind of thing IDEs have been able to do for a while now just by parsing syntax the old-fashioned way.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#157
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am yet to see any reasoned argument for why it is easy to build real AI and that it will come fast. We have "real ai" already. As for future progress, have you tried just simple interpolation of the progress so far? Human level intelligence is very near. (Though of course artificial intelligence will never exactly match human intelligence: it will be ahead/behind in certain aspects...)

- We don't have a "real AI" at all. Where's Skynet, where's HAL-9000? Where are the cute robotic butlers from the "I, Robot" movie? - Simple interpolation of the progress is exactly the problem here. Look at the historical graphs of AI funding and tell me with a straight face that we absolutely must use simple interpolation. - Nope, human-level intelligence is not even close. It remains as nebulous and out of reach a…

To be fair, I’ve talked to a lot of people who cannot consistently perform at the mistral-12b level.

I think we expect AGI to be much smarter than the average joe, and free of occasional stupidity.

What we’ve got is an 85IQ generalist with unreliable savant capabilities, that can also talk to a million people at the same time without getting distracted. I don’t see how that isn’t absolutely a fundamental shift in capability.

It’s just that we expect it to be spectacularly useful. Not like homeless joe, who lives down by the river. Unfortunately, nobody wants a 40 acre call center of homeless joes, but it’s hard to argue that HJ isn’t an intelligent entity.

Obviously LLMs don’t yet have a control and supervision loop that gives them goal directed behaviour, but they also don’t have a drinking problem and debilitating PTSD with a little TBI thrown in from the last war.

It’s not that we aren’t on the cusp of general intelligence, it’s that we have a distorted idea of how useful that should be.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shouldn't be. For code bases where context is mostly local they destroy human throughput by comparison. They only fall down hard when used in spaghetti dumpster fire codebases where you have to paste the contents of 6+ files into context or the code crosses a multiple service boundaries to do anything. A competent engineer architects their systems to make their tools as effective as possible, so maybe your idea o…

> They only fall down hard when used in spaghetti dumpster fire codebases where you have to paste the contents of 6+ files into context or the code crosses a multiple service boundaries to do anything. So humans do better than them in at least 80% of all code everywhere, if not 95% even? Cool, good to know. Care to provide some examples to back your otherwise extraordinary claim btw?

You sure seem invested in hating AI, what's your problem brother?

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#159
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- We don't have a "real AI" at all. Where's Skynet, where's HAL-9000? Where are the cute robotic butlers from the "I, Robot" movie? - Simple interpolation of the progress is exactly the problem here. Look at the historical graphs of AI funding and tell me with a straight face that we absolutely must use simple interpolation. - Nope, human-level intelligence is not even close. It remains as nebulous and out of reach a…

To be fair, I’ve talked to a lot of people who cannot consistently perform at the mistral-12b level. I think we expect AGI to be much smarter than the average joe, and free of occasional stupidity. What we’ve got is an 85IQ generalist with unreliable savant capabilities, that can also talk to a million people at the same time without getting distracted. I don’t see how that isn’t absolutely a fundamental shift in cap…

> What we’ve got is an 85IQ generalist with unreliable savant capabilities, that can also talk to a million people at the same time without getting distracted. I don’t see how that isn’t absolutely a fundamental shift in capability.

Very shallow assessment, first of all it's not a generalist at all, it has zero concept of what it's talking about, secondly it gets confused easily unless you order it to keep context in memory, and thirdly it can't perform if it does not regularly swallow petabytes of human text.

I get your optimism but it's uninformed.

> To be fair, I’ve talked to a lot of people who cannot consistently perform at the mistral-12b level.

I can find you an old-school bot that performs better than uneducated members of marginalized and super poor communities, what is your example even supposed to prove?

> it’s hard to argue that HJ isn’t an intelligent entity.

What's HJ? If it's not a human then it's extremely easy to argue that it's not an intelligent entity. We don't have intelligent machine entities, we have stochastic parrots and it's weird to pretend otherwise when the algorithms are well-known and it's very visible there's no self-optimization in there, there's no actual learning, there's only adjusting weights (and this is not what our actual neurons do btw), there's no motivation or self-drive to continue learning, there's barely anything that has been "taught" to combine segments of human speech and somehow that's a huge achievement. Sure.

> It’s not that we aren’t on the cusp of general intelligence, it’s that we have a distorted idea of how useful that should be.

Nah, we are on no cusp of general AGI at all. We're not even at 1%. Don't know about you but I have a very clear idea what would AGI look like and LLMs are nowhere near. Not even in the same ballpark.

It helps that I am not in the area and I don't feel the need to pat myself on the back that I have managed to achieve the next AI plateau which the area will not soon recover from.

Bookmark this comment and tell me I am wrong in 10 years, I dare you.

Re: Artificial intelligence is losing hype

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They only fall down hard when used in spaghetti dumpster fire codebases where you have to paste the contents of 6+ files into context or the code crosses a multiple service boundaries to do anything. So humans do better than them in at least 80% of all code everywhere, if not 95% even? Cool, good to know. Care to provide some examples to back your otherwise extraordinary claim btw?

You sure seem invested in hating AI, what's your problem brother?

I don't "hate" AI because (1) AI does not exist so how can I hate something that doesn't exist? And (2) I don't "hate" a machine, I cringe at people who make grand claims with zero proof. Yes. Zero. Not small, not infinitesimal -- zero.

I just can't make peace with the fact that I inhabit the same planet as people who can't make elementary distinctions.

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