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The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

berthub.eu

151–160 of 258 posts

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#151
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Punishment is not the answer, you'll just drive out of the industry lots of competent people. Punishment also means that nobody will admit to mistakes, will not fix mistakes (because that implies guilt), and the covering up of mistakes. Punishment for mistakes is what led to the Chernobyl disaster.

Flight safety works so well because the personnel are aligned with safety and professionalism, and the FAA has an important program in place to protect people from being punished for behaving professionally. And IIRC you're familiar with aircraft manufacturer alignment with safety. But I'm concerned about the entire field of software, which doesn't have that sense of responsibility, and I don't see how it would get i…

Every business is guided almost entirely by money. The purpose of a business is to make money.

Organizations based on other incentives don't work, or work very poorly.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#152
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The high-voltage side should be separated from the electronics, so it shouldn't be dangerous if you are observant. It may be sufficient to just disconnect the antennas from the WiFi module, that will help prevent any network connections.

Disconnecting the antenna would still have leakage at close range. Grounding the antenna might be a better option. But in practice, the dangers highlighted by the article only surface when an attacker has control of many solar plants at scale. Compromising an individual one by getting close-range physical access will be a local annoyance but wouldn't scale to a level where it can threaten the grid, so it limits the p…

Without an antenna, even at close range, initial handshakes will fail or be unreliable.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never claimed remote updating would prevent supply chain attacks. I was responding to: > With a hardware switch, none of that malware will survive a reboot of the device. A reboot of the inverter would not prevent a supply chain attack using MPPT measurement electronics for an optical backdoor channel.

So don't put the backdoor channel in without a physical switch.

Attackers don't ask permission.

The hardware backdoor channel is present anyway because MPPT needs it.

The software can abuse the measurements to listen for optically transmitted commands.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#154
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> medium caliber semi-automatic rifle Technically, anything that can put a hole in an oil-filled transformer. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformer_types#Liquid-coo... You don't need to break it... just crack the radiator enough for all the circulating fluid to drain, then it overheats.

Important to point out this isn't just theory, it's actually happened (in the SF Bay Area!) with a regular rifle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalf_sniper_attack https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/02/05/272015606...

Also in the north GA mountains in the 1970s.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't protect against supply chain attacks.

Neither does remote updating. But you'll still need physical access to the supply chain to compromise it, and that's not possible for some hacker in a basement.

> But you'll still need physical access to the supply chain to compromise it, and that's not possible for some hacker in a basement.

I forgot to respond to this sentence in the sibling response.

Supply chain attacks can be executed by intermediaries of the supply chain, or by manufacturers themselves: develop the capability to deny a foreign nation its energy infrastructure. The manufacturer is not a hacker in a basement. Manufacturers can be pressured by their local gorvernments, militaries, 3 letter agencies, ...

A precautionary principle would induce potential target nations to surreptitiously catalogue the inverter boards, sort them by most-GW serving type, and consider which control traces to cut to control the internal energy transfers in its inductors, capacitors, ... from a trusted parasite board. Just develop and test a few parasite boards for the most common inverters, and preferably have critical stock ready.

The main value in inverters is the power switches, inductors, capacitors, ... it would be cheaper to reroute the control to a trusted controller in the event of a calamity. We would survive fine, but it will be a painful few days.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#156
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are talking about energy, which is not the same thing as power. TWh == energy, GW == power. The distinction is important, especially in the Netherlands, which has a capacity factor of only about 10%-15%, whereas most of the US will be at least 20%-25%, which is twice as high. I'm not sure of the typical number of reactors in the Netherlands, but using the US average of 1.6/power plant may not be the most represen…

I have no idea what you're talking about, since nowhere did I use solar capacity factor data nor did I look at number of reactors per plant.

You are using both with your energy generated numbers. That's where they come from.

Your solar TWh comes from 25GW at ~15% capacity factor, and to get your nuclear numbers you're looking at 1.6GW for each of nuclear "plants" when each reactor is usually about 1GW or less. There are ~90 reactors in the US, at 54 plants. The article is assuming 1 reactor per plant for the Netherlands.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#157
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the purposes of information security, the nameplate capacity is the correct number to consider for a very simple reason: we must defend as if hackers will pick the absolute worst moment to attack the grid. That is the moment when the sun is shining and it's absolutely cloudless across Netherlands, California, Germany, or wherever their target grid is. At that moment, the attacker will not only blast the grid with…

This is wildly overstating the issue. Hackers are not going to break into hundreds of separate sites, compromise inverters, compromise relay protection, compromise SCADA systems, and execute a perfectly timed attack. Even if they did, these are distributed resources, they don't all go through a single substation and I doubt any one site could cause any major harm to any one substation. Instead, they're going to get a…

Hurray! I have experience that may shed some insights. I worked on SCADA software (3 different ones), for about 15 years, started off as a Systems Engineer for an Industrial Power Metering company (but writing software), built drivers for various circuit breakers and other power protection devices, and wrote drivers and other software for IEC61850 (substation modelling and connectivity standard). I’ve been the technical director of one of these SCADA systems, and in charge of bringing the security to “zero trust”. I’ve been on the phone with the FBI (despite not being an American or in America), and these days I design and lead the security development at a large software company.

I’ve been out of the Power Industry/SCADA game for about 6 years now, and never had huge involvement with solar farms, so please take this with a large grain of salt, but here is my take. 15 years ago, all anyone would say about industrial networks was “air gap!”. Security within SCADA products was designed solely to prevent bad operators from doing bad things. Security on devices was essentially non-existent, and firmware could often be updated via the same connectivity that the SCADA system had to the devices (although SCADA rarely supported this; it was still possible). In addition, SCADA systems completely trusted communication coming back from the devices themselves, making it relatively simple for a rogue device to exploit a buffer overrun in the SCADA. After Stuxnet + a significant push from the US government, SCADA systems moved from “defensive boundary, trust internally” to “zero trust”. However, devices have a long, long service life. Typically they would be deployed and left alone for 10+ years, and generally had little to no security. Security researches left this space alone, because the cost of entry was too high, but anytime they did investigate a device, there were always trivial exploits.

Although SCADA (and other industrial control software), will be run on an isolated network, it will still be bridged in multiple places. This is in order to get data out of the system, but also to get data into the system (via devices, and off-site optimisation software). The other trend that happened over time was to centralize operations in order to have fewer operators controlling multiple sites. That means that compromising one network gives you access to a lot of real world hardware.

Engineers never trusted SCADA (wisely), and all of these systems would be well built with multiple fail-safes and redundancies and so on. However, if I were to be a state-actor, I’d target the SCADA. If you compromise that system, you have direct access to all devices and can potentially modify the firmware to do whatever you want. If there is security, the SCADA will be authorized.

I don’t think the security risks are overblown (they are overblown in what they think the real problems are). I think that as the systems have gotten ever more complex; we have such complicated interdependencies that it is impossible to deterministically analyse them completely. The “Northeast blackout of 2003” (where a SCADA bug lead to a cascade failure), was used as a case-study in this industry for many years, but if anything, I think the potential for intentional destruction is much higher.

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#159
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you are splitting hairs about the wrong issue. When it is sunny in the netherlands, it is likely sunny everywhere in NL because of how small the country is. This is the situation where having so much solar power capacity (kW) is dangerous. The risk scales with energy output but it would not term nameplate capacity a "completely useless metric".

I dunno. I lived next to a small inland sea most of my adult life. The number of times someone on the other side of town asserted it was raining when in fact it was not was quite high. Every adult in Seattle eventually has to learn that if you have an activity planned on the other side of town, if you cancel it because it’s raining at your house you’re not going to get anything done. You have to phone a friend or jus…

clouds and rain do not behave the same as the sun.

What point are you trying to make here?

Re: The gigantic and unregulated power plants in the cloud

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've totally missed the point. No one advocated ignoring the vulnerability. I, myself, specifically stated that monitoring should be direct. Consumers should unilaterally decide where, when and how their assets are monitored. The material point on security is that there are many, many methods of disrupting a power grid. Even when you are looking for plausible deniability, shutting down solar panels from cloud websi…

No, your point was clearly stated: > But the security argument? Yeah, that ship has sailed. Total war, means total war. Those are your words. I'm saying, focusing on total war is irresponsible and leads you to draw false conclusions. In the real world, limited conflicts are what we're dealing with 99.9+% of the time, thank goodness. And now in your new comment, for some reason you're focusing on "plausible deniabilit…

The security argument against cloud based monitoring has sailed.

With or without cloud based monitoring, our power grids can be disrupted.

That's the commonly accepted meaning of "that ship has sailed" as a colloquialism with respect to cloud based monitoring.

Also, you, yourself, brought up the idea of cold war style confrontation. The basis of most actions against proxy supporters in cold war style conflicts is plausible deniability. It's not a red herring, it's a widely adhered to tenet of cold war style conflict planning when targeting said proxy supporters.

I tried to cover total war, open war, and cold war to address the full spectrum of likely super power on super power active confrontations. In each scenario, the existence, or non-existence, of cloud based monitoring of solar panels, has no effect on the ability or inability of your adversary to disrupt your power grid.

Which disruption was the central thesis of your assertion. I was simply explaining why it was false.

You are being willfully argumentative at this point. If you didn't want to address cold war scenarios, why did you bring them up? You have a nice day sir or ma'am.

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