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US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

arstechnica.com

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Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#151

Post by ThomPete »

jerf wrote: post #146
kbolino wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorist victims in 2001: 3,000 Murder victims in 2001: 15,000 Car collision fatalities in 2001: 42,000 Cancer deaths in 2001: 550,000 The only thing that's disproportionate is how we react to terrorism. (statistics are for United States)

That's a canned knee-jerk response, not one that shows you read my message. That's not relevant data to the question of what future bioattacks or computer attacks are possible... and note my continued avoidance of the term "terrorism". Once an attack is launched the source isn't very relevant. Failing to secure our infrastructure because "terrorism isn't something to be afraid of" is still a stupid move because it le…

But the problem is that it ends up being a self-fulfilled prophecy.

People without any part in the original conflict is getting affected by it and then suddenly they are part of it.

That is the root of problems here.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#153

Post by dpark »

Morg wrote: post #144
Symmetry wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the US has done bad things, and AIDS is a bad thing, but it doesn't follow that the US caused AIDS. After all, nature has had no trouble creating pandemics without any deliberate human help over the centuries.

(just to be clear, I have no clue wether HIV was assisted by some military programmes, but I can safely say such "mistakes" have been made in the past by the same army, like when they used to test nukes for example) That means I just used the HIV word to connect to the concept of bio weapon testing gone wrong - weapon testing gone wrong. The reason why is that one of the most popular theories on HIV is that the US mi…

> That means I just used the HIV word to connect to the concept of bio weapon testing gone wrong - weapon testing gone wrong.

This means you just randomly connected unrelated things.

The connection doesn't even make sense at a basic level. If the US knowingly put sailors in boats near nuclear blasts to test for radiation effects, it wasn't a mistake. It was an intentional act. It makes no sense to say that this implies that super-HIV could have been accidentally released in the wild by the US government.

> The reason why is that one of the most popular theories on HIV is that the US military had a part in its development.

Popular among conspiracy theorists, perhaps, not among the general population or among experts in the field.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#154

Post by tsotha »

eli wrote: post #71
abrahamsen wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless David E. Sanger is a new Jayson Blair, I'd say the connection is confirmed, not just suspected. There are no weasel words in the article, meaning both the journalist, his editor, and NYT are putting their reputation at stake. This is as strong as a newspaper story gets.

The story is indeed confirmed, but the NYTimes write-up is definitely better. Ars does not add much and what they do add is speculation.

So... someone involved is going on the record? Someone who can do interviews on, you know, Fresh Air and say "I was involved in this project"? The fact that the NYT thinks it's true doesn't mean much, particularly since they've been punked so many times.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#155

Post by dpeck »

It is anything but confirmed. Arstechnica writes an article about an article in the NYT (a paper that doesn't have the best track record reporting about cyber events and control system security issues to begin with) that cites no credible sources.

Also, you don't "lose control" of something like this, it was designed with many ways to spread. If control was lost it was during the spec/coding phase, not after deployment.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#156

Post by guelo »

gcb wrote: post #149
guelo wrote: post #148

If the UN security council was a fair body Stuxnet would be judged to be an unprovoked act of war and the US and Israel would be sanctioned in some way. But of course the US gets to have it's thumbs on the UNSC scales. But the question is, if the US is going to blatantly abuse its privileged position like this how long is it going to last? There has been a Western consensus on a liberal framework for international la…

Military power is a requirement for international politics. Do you think counties summit to laws because of what? If no one can over power then, they have to abide to no law. UNis just to cut costs for the dominating military powers. Want something done? It costs less to send some talker to tell about the power you can mobilize than to mobilize that power at once.

That's a very cynical point of view that was the cause of much death before the creation of the UN. There used to be this ideal about what the UN meant including respect for international laws. How can we credibly complain that Iran is violating a UN resolution at this point? If we're moving back to a might-makes-right world we are doomed to a future of new world wars and untold carnage.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#157

Post by sliverstorm »

cynoclast wrote: post #62
ck2 wrote: post #28

It's a new cold war. Eventually Iran will write viruses in return to attack US power grid. All fun and games until Homeland Security Theater is given new powers to raid your home and shoot your dog if they think your computer is being used as part of a botnet.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

Al Jazeera has always had an anti-US/Israel bent, and they have always made that pretty clear. So, while they might provide useful coverage of the issue, it seems to me who them condemn and who they do not may not be the final, unbiased say in the matter...

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#158

Post by talmand »

SoftwareMaven wrote: post #141
talmand wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree, any attempt to shutdown a significant part of our power grid is terrifying to me. We are at a point in our society that we cannot survive without electricity for a large amount of time. Our economy would shutdown, people will starve as easily obtainable food would go away, certain medicines that keep people alive would spoil, hospitals would shut down, and more. We are so deeply ingrained in having electr…

Obligatory pointer to One Second After by William R. Forstchen[1], which is a factionalized account of what came out of the US EMP Attack Commission[2]. A power hiccup is not a problem. A systemic power failure is a catastrophe! 1. http://www.onesecondafter.com/ 2. http://EMPCommission.org/

I was thinking of that book but couldn't recall the name of it.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#159

Post by Karunamon »

cynoclast wrote: post #62
ck2 wrote: post #28

It's a new cold war. Eventually Iran will write viruses in return to attack US power grid. All fun and games until Homeland Security Theater is given new powers to raid your home and shoot your dog if they think your computer is being used as part of a botnet.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

>If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

You realize that both RT and AJ Arabic are very, very anti-US biased? Especially RT?

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#160

Post by kbolino »

jerf wrote: post #146
kbolino wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorist victims in 2001: 3,000 Murder victims in 2001: 15,000 Car collision fatalities in 2001: 42,000 Cancer deaths in 2001: 550,000 The only thing that's disproportionate is how we react to terrorism. (statistics are for United States)

That's a canned knee-jerk response, not one that shows you read my message. That's not relevant data to the question of what future bioattacks or computer attacks are possible... and note my continued avoidance of the term "terrorism". Once an attack is launched the source isn't very relevant. Failing to secure our infrastructure because "terrorism isn't something to be afraid of" is still a stupid move because it le…

My original response was more thoughtful, but I felt that summed up my point better.

The question is not what's possible, but what's likely and how much it will cost. If the likelihood is low and the cost is small, then you cannot justify extravagant preparation.

An attack against civilian infrastructure is terrorism no matter who does it. It may be a singular event, part of a chain of attacks, or a prelude to a full-scale military offensive. It's still terrorism, because it terrorizes the civilian population.

Irrational fear should not dictate our budget priorities. We can certainly take some precautions, and develop contingency plans. But at the end of the day, if someone is capable and determined enough, it's going to happen, regardless of how many much money and how many contractors and consultants we throw at the problem. The best we can do is take it in stride and rebuild.

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