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Scandal at America's top science fair

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Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#151

Post by distances »

thriftwy wrote: post #147
distances wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, my anecdotes would be from a private school in Europe where a family member is a teacher. They take plagiarism seriously, but also can expel students a lot easier than public schools can.

The point being is that plagiarism at a known private school that you pay good money for and hope to rely on, is something you will give much more consideration than sending work to a science fair to see if it will stick to a wall or not. Neither are particularly good behaviors, but as a "computer guy" I think your public-facing API (science fair admissions) should validate its inputs. There are people out there who…

I totally agree that the fair failed badly at validating the submissions.

> The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers.

This is what I disagree with. A 17 year old is not an innocent child that mustn't be blamed. At this age (and already earlier too) there has to be real consequences for plagiarism, proportionate to the case.

Plagiarize coursework? Fail the course. Cheat in final exams? Fail the exams and retake the year. And so on.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#152

Post by dagw »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #143
WillPostForFood wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need lottery based admissions. Let schools set a minimum test score, and anyone over that goes into lottery for admissions. Kill off essays, extra curriculars, club sports, summer programs, AP tests, Legacy admits, early applications, and let kids have some life again.

And the cool second order effect of this, is that all the energy currently invested in this zero sum competition will be redirected into a plan B for kids that don't make the cut. Which prompts all sorts of interesting ideas like, why don't we have more prestigious universities? Did we decide that there was only so much science that needed done? Or were we trying to put a protective moat round the children of the eli…

why don't we have more prestigious universities?

Depends what you mean by "prestigious universities". If you mean "one of the N best schools in the country" then per definition you cannot create more prestigious universities. If you mean universities capable of offering really high quality education to undergrads, then there are already very many 'unprestigious' universities that are every bit as good as the prestigious ones and in many cases probably a lot better.

I guess what is needed is some sort signal that, while this university doesn't have as many Nobel laureates as Stanford, it is every bit as good at teaching undergraduate physics. I wish there was a university ranking that only focused on the quality of the undergraduate teaching and education, but I have no idea how that would be done.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#153

Post by thriftwy »

distances wrote: post #151
thriftwy wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point being is that plagiarism at a known private school that you pay good money for and hope to rely on, is something you will give much more consideration than sending work to a science fair to see if it will stick to a wall or not. Neither are particularly good behaviors, but as a "computer guy" I think your public-facing API (science fair admissions) should validate its inputs. There are people out there who…

I totally agree that the fair failed badly at validating the submissions. > The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. This is what I disagree with. A 17 year old is not an innocent child that mustn't be blamed. At this age (and already earlier too) there has to be real consequences for plagiarism, proportionate to the case. Plagiarize coursework? Fail the course. Cheat in final ex…

So let him fail the science fair and probably be banned from entering this science fair and probably other ones if they're federated.

If that's not his first participation then the previous ones should also be reevaluated.

But that doesn't have much point since he's growing out of them already. And I don't think it's fair to pursue him further (other than existing bad publicity) since people do stupid things all the time and the idea of limited liability exists for a reason.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#154

Post by wholinator2 »

throwawaysleep wrote: post #133
teekert wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, in my country (the Netherlands) this whole attitude changed within 1 generation. My parents left met largely alone with my school stuff. Now I hear all my friends complaining that their kid's school "is so much work" for them. Crazy right? When I ask them: Why help them at all (my kids are younger btw), they tell me that "sure we can just not help them, they won't make it into university (but something "low…

> It's a super bad trend because the parent won't be around after school (during their adult life I mean) At least in North America, this has massively changed within a generation. By a lot. Virtually all of my social circle got help at a young age to buy big houses from their parents. Parents support kids for much longer. Kids live with their parents much longer. So yeah, the parents are now always there for people…

Damn, none of my friends can even afford a house now, and there's definitely no parental help with _purchasing a home_. That's such an insanely large amount of money. Parents might help with kids from time to time but monetary assistance ended the moment we first graduated.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#155

Post by TeMPOraL »

fransje26 wrote: post #126
teekert wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, in my country (the Netherlands) this whole attitude changed within 1 generation. My parents left met largely alone with my school stuff. Now I hear all my friends complaining that their kid's school "is so much work" for them. Crazy right? When I ask them: Why help them at all (my kids are younger btw), they tell me that "sure we can just not help them, they won't make it into university (but something "low…

Unless something drastically changed in the education system the last ten years, I wonder where all that perceived workload is coming from. Because 10 years back, the homework load, as expressed by the post high-school students I was hanging around with, was significantly lower than in some other European countries.

> Unless something drastically changed in the education system the last ten years, I wonder where all that perceived workload is coming from.

In Europe? At least around here, in post-Soviet states, 10 years ago is about the time the first generation of people, who experienced the "good school -> good university -> good job" phenomenon on themselves, had kids reaching school age. The rat race is barely picking up steam over here; we're lagging a couple decades of social "progress" compared to our Western counterparts.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#156

Post by throwaway48476 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #86
snickerbockers wrote: post #30

>Everyone makes mistakes — Lord knows I did plenty of stupid, immoral things when I was 17 — and there is always the opportunity for growth and redemption. when did the definition of 'mistake' change to encompass actions done on purpose? a mistake is when your data is invalid because you did the math wrong, not when all your data is simultaneously false and plagiarized. i don't mean to disagree with the notion that h…

The definition of mistake has always included actions done on purpose. Consider the sentences: Getting on that Boeing jet was a huge mistake. The worst mistake I ever made was voting for Trump. Having an intern give him a blowjob was the biggest mistake of Clinton's career. In all of those cases the action was done on purpose. You are confusing the definition of mistake with the phrase "by mistake", i.e. "I ran rm -r…

You are confusing mens rea and actus rea.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#157

Post by throwaway48476 »

krisoft wrote: post #124
armchairhacker wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Googling his name brings up this article as the third result. Someone in whatever college he has been accepted to will surely discover and spread rumors, which he can’t really defend against because all the evidence supports that he did it. If he tries to publish anything, people will see his name and immediately question its legitimacy. If he gets an offer and the employer finds out they may rescind it because they…

Sure. The gist of what you write is true. Being caught cheating harms his future prospects. You are thinking that now because he was already caught. But when he decided to cheat he didn’t know he will be caught. Probably he either estimated the chanches of him it wrong. Thinking perhaps that he will do a better job with the cheating, or that nobody looks that hard. Or he assumed lower consequences. Perhaps assuming i…

If the chance of getting caught is low enough the expected value of cheating is positive.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#158

Post by throwaway48476 »

dagw wrote: post #140
saberience wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to pay for tutors to have a chance of getting into the best colleges biases the whole system in favour of the wealthy. Do you want only rich kids going to college?

If you are genuinely smart you will do well enough on qualify for top schools just by studying at school and on your own and relying on your own ability. And even the best and most expensive tutors cannot do that much to improve your scores if you just don't have the aptitude and discipline. The system now is far more geared towards sending only rich kids to college than any national testing and admissions system wou…

There's a diminishing return on the value invested in tutoring where innate ability plays a bigger part.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#159

Post by throwaway48476 »

miningape wrote: post #134
throwawaysleep wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely racial tones. Asian countries are frequently accused of copying, cheating, and stealing intellectual property from others, so it matches what people assume about members of those races.

I think this comes down to "face culture" where its "better" to lie and be caught than be forthright from the beginning. The people used to / raised in face cultures think this is normal and acceptable behavior (because: hey everyone else is doing this I should too - If I don't I will fall behind), whereas those from more "honest" cultures tend to despise the behaviour as it makes work less trustworthy and tends to g…

There are plenty of examples in the recent past of high social trust countries without a face culture.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#160

Post by UncleMeat »

tomcam wrote: post #54
uneekname wrote: post #10

I was a finalist at the 2017 ISEF and it was quite an experience. A lot of super smart kids there and we all had fun living it up in Los Angeles. There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. No hate to high schoolers getting valuable STEM experience at local universities, but Regeneron should do more to diffe…

> There was a stark contrast between those of us who had designed our projects completely ourselves, and those who had significant mentors/lab affiliations. Said with kindness and discretion. Parental "help", e.g. doing most or all of the work for a science fair entry, is an open secret among Asian communities. It has been for decades. I know firsthand that many Chinese-born parents don't even view it as at all wrong…

Many many years ago I participated in a national history competition and went to nationals. The participants were almost entirely white, and there was absolutely this "well its obvious the parents didi this" thing there too.
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