Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger • Hacker News Board

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#151

Post by giantg2 » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:32 PM UTC

vlovich123 wrote: post #144

toolz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I personally empathize more with the concerns of poor humans than I do mistreated animals and increasing food costs seems likely to increase their pain. I'll gladly wait for technology to improve the lives of animals, but I think it's important our legislation focuses entirely on improving the life of people, exclusively.

Enforcing ignorance is the answer? > but I think it's important our legislation focuses entirely on improving the life of people, exclusively What about the activists who are motivated by a genuine belief that this is wrong and believe it's their life's work to raise awareness of the issue? Throwing them in jail isn't improving their lives - what framework are you using to pick losers & winners of the people you help…

"Throwing them in jail isn't improving their lives - what framework are you using to pick losers & winners of the people you help vs hurt?"

Seems to be the combined wishes of the constituents. Same theory applies to most topics. You can see this in how different states poll on firearms (or abortion, etc) and the types of laws they have on that topic. As an extreme example, the same person can carry the same gun in two different states and be lawful in one and committing a felony in another without causing any damage simply because the values and beliefs expressed by the populations results in different laws. They might even qualify to carry lawfully in both states but are missing a piece of paper confirming it. That's how the laws works - break it and suffer consequences. Maybe it's worth it depeding on your moral convictions. Don't like it, then change the law. In the case of agricultural tresspass, the law is not likely to change in ID based on the current views of the population there.

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#152

Post by tengbretson » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:33 PM UTC

walthamstow wrote: post #94

cogman10 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up similarly and it's part of the reason I've cut back on my meat. Shoving 100 cattle into a 1 acre feed lot for their entire lives is unfortunately how a lot of beef is produced. They spend their lives covered in shit, sleeping in shit, and trapped with no where to roam. And instead of addressing this problem, my state (Idaho) made it illegal to take photos of the issue. [1] [1] https://legislature.idaho.gov/…

Money is speech, but photos are not apparently

You should read the linked law. You may find it reasonable.

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#153

Post by emptysongglass » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:34 PM UTC

mrighele wrote: post #113

emptysongglass wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is nothing wrong with eating meat and breeding cattle. You're not doing a whole lot to explain why there is nothing wrong with eating meat and breeding cattle. I can think of a whole host of reasons why it is wrong in matters of ethics and mercy. Who is there to advocate for the cow? We know cows feel a gamut of emotions just as we do. They are not insensate. Most humans, when given a knife or a captive bolt…

> You're not doing a whole lot to explain why there is nothing wrong with eating meat and breeding cattle. Why should explain why something is NOT bad ? It's up to you to convince him (or others) that it is bad, and the reasoning "according to MY ethics it is bad" is not a good argument. There is a good argument to be made that in the West we should eat less meat, but that doesn't mean removing it completely: it is h…

> Why should explain why something is NOT bad?

Because they're the one who made the claim without evidence or argument.

> It's up to you to convince him (or others) that it is bad

Yes, that's what I did.

> the reasoning "according to MY ethics it is bad" is not a good argument.

That wasn't my argument.

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#154

Post by nathan_compton » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:34 PM UTC

BoingBoomTschak wrote: post #37

emptysongglass wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's essentially what we do with cows. Do you see the hypocrisy? We don't inflict this on humans so why do it to other creatures which can know terror and pain just as we do?

Because empathy being applied to other species is an evolutionary bug, not a feature. Bug probably triggered by the luxurious abundance and the accompanying decadence acting on brains a bit too disconnected from the reality of the animal kingdom. And if you want intellectual justifications: because we're the apex predators and we do what we want when we want; that includes raising and eating beasts that are of no oth…

Sometimes there isn't anything one can do to sugarcoat something: this is stupid. For one thing, even if we were to take your bald assertion that empathy is somehow an evolutionary bug at face value, though you've provided no evidence for this or even really any suggestion of what it could mean, it doesn't follow that lacking it is the optimal behavior relative to "evolutionary goals" (which are nothing) or whatever unstated goals you presume we all share.

Like on of the most wonderful things about human beings is that we can reflect upon our behavior, form moral and aesthetic opinions about how we'd like the future to be, and make appropriate adjustments to our behavior to achieve those ends.

In any case, the material circumstances that produced us have absolutely no meaning at all. The essence of the evolutionary explanation is that life really is random, given that, we may just as freely reject evolutionary understandings of what we want from the world as we may accept them. Surely they are of practical value, in the sense that if we want to optimally act on the world we have to understand it, but they impose no necessary moral or aesthetic demands upon us. It is deeply confused to believe that the mere evolutionary circumstances that produced you ought to constrain how you want the future to look.

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#155

Post by bequanna » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:35 PM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #61

ljf wrote: post #34

I grew up on a (very) small farm - so I knew where all the meat we ate (and eggs, apple, plums and jam) came from. One of the things I find most disconcerting as an adult is the disconnect with the food I eat. Even the local 'farmer butcher' - I don't actually know if the meat they sell me is what they say it is. I buy a lot of deer from a friend of a friend as it feels slightly more known to me - even if I have no i…

I grew up similarly and it's part of the reason I've cut back on my meat. Shoving 100 cattle into a 1 acre feed lot for their entire lives is unfortunately how a lot of beef is produced. They spend their lives covered in shit, sleeping in shit, and trapped with no where to roam. And instead of addressing this problem, my state (Idaho) made it illegal to take photos of the issue. [1] [1] https://legislature.idaho.gov/…

I agree with you--feedlots are disgusting and cruel.

However, cattle do not spend their "entire lives" at a feedlot. Usually only the last few months (or less) before slaughter. Prior to that, that majority of cattle live in very open and pleasant conditions.

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#156

Post by jonahbenton » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:36 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #119

jonahbenton wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to your genetic predecessors.

Tell them what? that we've grown so fat and stupid on the abundance the earth provides that we can't properly manage it and will probably cause millions undue suffering because we don't want to reduce our meat consumption to less than 250lbs per year despite it being easily possible?

Heh, I eat a lot of meat and still less than 250lbs per year. That's a perfectly fine number. The parent was saying that zero was the right number. Zero is really not the right number for much of the current human population. We shall see what happens in the future.

I'm with you that the collective we is fat and stupid and would go further than our various systems and patterns solve for predatory behavior against both humans and non-humans leading to those outcomes, and it is super unfortunate.

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#157

Post by swayvil » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:36 PM UTC

jareklupinski wrote: post #149

swayvil wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You people are failing to grasp my metaphor. Replace it with "the only way to feed my kids is by performing evil deeds, like trafficking in illicit beef". What do you do when you are stuck in a game like that? You aren't exactly evil, but what are you? What other games like this are there?

> when you are stuck in a game like that "we" people just aren't in the habit (or have overcome our desire) of getting stuck in evil games: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-win_situation > "the only winning move is not to play" as long as the sun isn't terribly angry at its energy being used to help my heart beat, there should be a path to converting its energy into what i need in 2024

You pay taxes under pain of imprisonment.

Your taxes fund maiming and killing innocent civilians.

That's one of those evil games.

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#158

Post by LinXitoW » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:36 PM UTC

BoingBoomTschak wrote: post #37

emptysongglass wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's essentially what we do with cows. Do you see the hypocrisy? We don't inflict this on humans so why do it to other creatures which can know terror and pain just as we do?

Because empathy being applied to other species is an evolutionary bug, not a feature. Bug probably triggered by the luxurious abundance and the accompanying decadence acting on brains a bit too disconnected from the reality of the animal kingdom. And if you want intellectual justifications: because we're the apex predators and we do what we want when we want; that includes raising and eating beasts that are of no oth…

"Species" is, in and of itself, a man made construct. To define your own morals by an arbitrary distinction isn't just simplistic, it's downright dangerous.

It wasn't long ago that certain people were considered "subhuman", and therefore open to all kinds of abuse. Did you learn nothing from that?

And of course, the same is true for your ridiculous "might makes right" argument. Have you considered making other horribly uneducated arguments, like "it's natural"? Maybe add some "we've always done it that way".

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#159

Post by dr_dshiv » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:37 PM UTC

toolz wrote: post #138

rmbyrro wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wow, one year in jail just for trespassing or taking a photo and doing absolutely no damage. I wonder how much it costs to buy a legislature house. Can't we crowfund buying it to make "modern" farming illegal?

I personally empathize more with the concerns of poor humans than I do mistreated animals and increasing food costs seems likely to increase their pain. I'll gladly wait for technology to improve the lives of animals, but I think it's important our legislation focuses entirely on improving the life of people, exclusively.

[flagged]

Re: Tracking Illicit Brazilian Beef from the Amazon to Your Burger

#160

Post by colordrops » Thu, May 09, 2024, 2:37 PM UTC

mytailorisrich wrote: post #3

matt_daemon wrote: post #2

For anyone interested in the numbers behind how bad beef and deforestation are for the environment, see Hannah Ritchie’s great new book Not the End of the World .

Beef in itself is not bad for the environment. It's the scale of demand that is bad. And that demand is fueled by the combined effects of global population growth and global increase in standards of living. We tend to stop at the symptoms instead of going after the root cause.

That's like saying "oil is not bad for the environment, it's the scale of the demand that is bad".