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Flags Are Not Languages

flagsarenotlanguages.com

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Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#151

Post by jwells89 »

derefr wrote: post #119
James_K wrote: post #2

Counterpoint to this website: it is convenient to have symbols to represent things. I don't see them suggesting anything better than flags.

People have proposed "language flags" before. In fact, Wikipedia even uses/maintains a set of them for Wiktionary entries ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Language_flags_lis... ) — although I've never personally noticed them in use in Wiktionary. (Does anyone have an example of a Wiktionary page that embeds one of these?)

I like this concept, but worry that the space afforded in common UI (e.g. 16px tray/menubar icons) isn’t sufficient to display the added detail.

Perhaps “language symbols”, which take the idea of language flags and simplifies them into colored glyphs that render nicely at small sizes could be a solution.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#152

Post by LudwigNagasena »

lolinder wrote: post #110
ncclporterror wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And of course quite a few countries still using English because they were formerly colonized/oppressed/etc. (take your pick) and might have a thing or two to say about having to deal with the British flag. What about the fact that their language would be listed as "English", therefore reminding them it originated in England? Is listing the language as "English" significantly different from listing it as " English"?…

> you can almost always find some offensive interpretation of anything. This is the "perfect is the enemy of good" fallacy. We may not be able to find something that is not offensive to anyone in the world, but we can pick a convention that doesn't actively force hundreds of millions of people to identify themselves with colonial powers that committed genocide against their ancestors. If this sounds hyperbolic to you…

What’s reasonable for some is hyperbolic for others. So it feels like emotional abuse / bullying; or at least as a real world example of a utility monster: Someone gets so much harm from a little inconvenience that all people are supposed to bow down to them.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#153

Post by pjmlp »

ryandrake wrote: post #101

At least on the web, you shouldn't even be using your web UI to change the language in the first place! Browsers already send Accept-Language: headers. Just use that. Why complicate your UI? It's at best redundant and at worst annoying when a web site chooses to ignore my preference and rolls its own.

Well, given how bad some technical translations happen to be, I want to see regular Web content in one of my native languages, but read programming stuff in English, so Accept-Language: headers alone won't do it anyway.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#154

Post by lolinder »

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #152
lolinder wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you can almost always find some offensive interpretation of anything. This is the "perfect is the enemy of good" fallacy. We may not be able to find something that is not offensive to anyone in the world, but we can pick a convention that doesn't actively force hundreds of millions of people to identify themselves with colonial powers that committed genocide against their ancestors. If this sounds hyperbolic to you…

What’s reasonable for some is hyperbolic for others. So it feels like emotional abuse / bullying; or at least as a real world example of a utility monster: Someone gets so much harm from a little inconvenience that all people are supposed to bow down to them.

As I said:

> I strongly recommend reading up on the history of English treatment of the Irish over the centuries. Then follow that by learning more about African colonization.

We're not talking about some your-grandpa-defrauded-my-grandpa historical slight, we're talking about genocide systematically executed under the authority of that flag. The emotions experienced by these people are in the same category as those experienced by Jews when they see a swastika. If you don't see how that's a bigger deal than you're making it sound then I don't know how to help you.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#155

Post by spacehunt »

morbicer wrote: post #87
jiehong wrote: post #60

I always thought they should be using the flag of the UN to indicate the location of a language selection dropdown, and just list the name of the languages in their native form in the list. But being able to choose the language is always much better than sites forcing you to use a specific version of a site depending on your location, which is such a pain. Side note: seeing the Taiwanese flag for traditional Chinese…

How do they call the language they speak? French? You know where the language originates and why is it called French? I kinda understand some of the arguments and sensitivities and some examples on the website are dumb but it's also dumb to deny that French language can't be associated with France. I bet people in Quebec and Niger can make the connection when they open the dropdown that this will be the language they…

Hong Kong people speak Cantonese, and there is no "Canton" flag. (Hong Kong does have its own flag, but sometimes people want to show only "country-level" flags and well...)

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#156

Post by wodenokoto »

deepsun wrote: post #129

Still a lot of websites (including Google) ignore "Accept-Language" header, and show language based on my geolocated IP address. Dude, if I'm visiting Netherlands it doesn't mean I speak Dutch. At least I can guess some words cause it's Latin alphabet. But when I visited Georgia I had no idea what მიღება even sounds like.

And in such cases, having a flag as a language switcher is a godsend.

Of course, with google, you are likely logged in with an account and they should know better, but most other websites you visit, you are not, so they give you the version local to where you are, as that’s usually more correct than not.

Now where is that flag …

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#158

Post by LudwigNagasena »

lolinder wrote: post #154
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s reasonable for some is hyperbolic for others. So it feels like emotional abuse / bullying; or at least as a real world example of a utility monster: Someone gets so much harm from a little inconvenience that all people are supposed to bow down to them.

As I said: > I strongly recommend reading up on the history of English treatment of the Irish over the centuries. Then follow that by learning more about African colonization. We're not talking about some your-grandpa-defrauded-my-grandpa historical slight, we're talking about genocide systematically executed under the authority of that flag. The emotions experienced by these people are in the same category as those…

If you don’t see why censoring a British flag that represents a language literally called _English_ seems entirely pointless and laughable to some people then I don’t know how to help you.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#159

Post by teg4n_ »

derefr wrote: post #119
James_K wrote: post #2

Counterpoint to this website: it is convenient to have symbols to represent things. I don't see them suggesting anything better than flags.

People have proposed "language flags" before. In fact, Wikipedia even uses/maintains a set of them for Wiktionary entries ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Language_flags_lis... ) — although I've never personally noticed them in use in Wiktionary. (Does anyone have an example of a Wiktionary page that embeds one of these?)

It seems like these flags don’t uniquely represent specific languages. Look at how many languages have the flag of India.

Re: Flags Are Not Languages

#160

Post by morbicer »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #145
morbicer wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do they call the language they speak? French? You know where the language originates and why is it called French? I kinda understand some of the arguments and sensitivities and some examples on the website are dumb but it's also dumb to deny that French language can't be associated with France. I bet people in Quebec and Niger can make the connection when they open the dropdown that this will be the language they…

> You know where the language originates and why is it called French? Yes, it originates in Italy, and it's named after a group that once occupied part of the area where France is now. They spoke Frankish, a language unrelated to French. Interestingly, in Asia, the French are often referred to as "Franks", or rather by an interpretation of the word "Frank" in the sound system of the local language as it existed a few…

Well aktschually... you can then say it originates somewhere in India or rather Pontic-Caspian steppe. The Italian version of Vulgar Latin is called Italian.

Being pedantic is not practical for the UX of locale dropdowns. There are issues with flags. Franks being a Germanic tribe is not one of them.

Although maybe putting a Roman SPQR flag and Latin locale would save you some costs. With some effort it should be comprehensible by half of Europe.

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