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Dear Europe, please wake up

klinger.io

151–160 of 323 posts

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you’re at an EU company and need to give 3+ months notice to quit that will discourage starting your own company on the side. India has similar non-competes to Western Europe, but is able to maintain an innovation ecosystem.

Post-employment non-competes aren't enforceable in India [1][2][3] [1] https://m.economictimes.com/jobs/fresher/it-freshers-beware-... [2] https://www.business-standard.com/amp/industry/news/non-comp... [3] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/bengaluru/cant-enfo...

You still need an NOC to shift to another employer, and if your boss is vindictive, they will make it hell.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#153

Why did this get flagged?

Maybe because it led to a bunch of USA-is-great chest-beating, and a bunch of Europe-is-great chest-beating, and very little discussion of the actual content of the article.

I was 80% of the way through the comments before I saw any mention of the article's point. (Though I did see two comments claiming that they didn't understand it, which seems hard to believe, given that it was both simple and stated about three times.)

So: Flagged because it led to a lousy discussion, not because it was a lousy article. But that actually seems to be on HN rather than on the article, at least in my humble opinion...

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#154
post #110

My company offers relocation from the US to Paris. The Paris office is beautiful, right near the Eiffel Tower. If I take the relocation I get an automatic 50% salary cut, and my tax bill goes way up. Not to mention VAT and other expenses. Seems like Europe’s problem with innovation is maybe related.

>If I take the relocation I get an automatic 50% salary cut

It's obvious that cashflow will suffer. The question is whether you will like living in Paris on the money that's left. There is a good chance you would and will also discover where the hidden taxes of living in US were. Or not.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#155

“The problem is not that regulation 1 or 100 is too much. The problem is that every country has different regulations, creating a mess of complexity if you want to act across a larger consumer market” If you’re building the next Uber sure, this might be a problem. But this is also a HUGE advantage if you’re not though. If you’re building the Workday for Estonia, or the LinkedIn for Germany (ie Xing) you have a huge a…

It's amusing that you used Uber as an example as Bolt is a direct competitor to Uber that is founded and operated in Estonia, but other than that, your purported advantage is pretty meager.

Assuming you build a product custom tailored to Estonia's unique regulatory requirements that is targeting primarily business users, then you are targeting a maximum market of 324,000 businesses. It's realistic to assume, given Estonia's population of 1.32M people, that most of those businesses are sole proprietorships or small businesses that will not have any IT or service department to support them. Building a successful, competitive product in this fashion requires protectionist policies that favor a local product, and those policies will often run afoul of public tendering rules. At least with Germany, you are dealing with a much larger scale (~84M people, and ~5.3M businesses).

It is certainly possible to build and operate a service that would target Estonian, or other small countries, specific regulatory requirements, but the size of the potential market is extremely small, and the path forward to build a competitive service is to abstract away Estonia specific regulations so that you can build country/regional specific versions.

All that said, assuming you are successful in building a business that accomplishes an "X" product for "Y" market model, the entire success of the business is predicated on a market that is created by differentiation in regulation, and your product benefits from lobbying for eliminating those differentiation.

Optimizing for small, local markets is definitely a path to success for some businesses but it's not an easy one, and it doesn't seem like a reasonable investment for growth oriented startups that seek to compete in a global marketplace.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#156

There is a big difference between Europeans in Europe and Europeans in the US - Europeans in the US readily point this out. The idea that Europeans are somehow genetically less suited to building tech companies is an obvious strawman. The reality is that Europeans in America are, like all immigrants, heavily self-selected. The article also does not mention the huge difference in compensation for technology talent bet…

> the huge difference in compensation for technology talent between the US and Europe

Poles and Czechs get paid relative peanuts compared to West Europeans, yet have fairly startup industries compared to France or Germany.

Same with further afield in India or China.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#157
So many things here.

Lets talk pay, US tech workers, lets just say Sr SWE and up, and lets look at SF as the author uses this as a focal point. Salary is roughly $300-400k a year(in SF FANGish company), in Europe or England its about half of that, and maybe even less. I know as I have family I married into that points out this fact, the best workers all go over to the US and make large salaries over there at US tech giants.

Lets talk about taxes, especially in the northern European countries taxes are extremely high when you get into professional wage bands, ie. above 120-200K euros(50% tax rates in some countries compared to 37% top US tax rate) and capital gains which is a huge issue as some employees get a majority of their income through this - 30% cap gains tax rate and above for a decent amount of western/northern EU countries, compared to 20% top tax rates for US.

Lastly lets talk about employees, you hire someone and they don't work. In Europe you cannot just term them and give them a severance package of a few weeks. In France you are not allowed to even layoff employees unless you are close to bankruptcy(I think this was changed a few years back). But in general it is very hard to fire employees who are underperforming in the EU.

All of these facts really highlight why alot of top talent and founders from the EU come over to the US to make money and start companies. I am not saying one way is right or wrong but just want to pint out the points that both ICs/managers and founders have all told me(I am US based).

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#158
As a fellow European that started skimming the article halfway through as I was facepalming too hard: did he never look at the raw numbers?

If you target the US market the pie is basically 10x times what it would be if you targeted your country in Europe.

Realistically speaking, Europe ain't got a chance unless we abolish our countries entirely, creating a single market. And that's not gonna happen. Ever.

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#159
post #97

Why should Europe care where they are amongst this myopic ranking of “best tech hub”? Western Europe is a great place to live, raise a family, and retire. None of the tech hub countries are even remotely comparable to Europe in this sense. If there are people in Europe who want to work in a high growth industry that desperately, they can move to USA or China.

Europeans live the way they do because of unbelievable amounts of wealth and innovation accumulated through centuries which is being spent. None of that is guaranteed in a failing , aging europe. It's not food-safe, nor energy-safe. Not thinking about a sustainable future is fatally myopic

Re: Dear Europe, please wake up

#160
post #30

"If you go to the south of France – our hope and prayers in the global AI race – and order a coffee there is a chance that the waitress doesn’t understand the word “coffee”, can’t explain you what’s in the salad – happened to me twice." Oh they'll understand. They will just pretend not to. It's France.

No they don't. As a French person, I can assure you that the level of English of the average French person is completely abysmal.

On the other hand, as a foreigner, I have been to tiny villages in Sweden where even 70 year old grandmas know enough English to communicate.

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