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Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

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Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#151

Post by martin-t »

sanderjd wrote: post #62
_eojb wrote: post #27

This is a very brave post to write given how incendiary responses to rust criticism can be, but this matches my experience entirely.

I think I just read about 10 versions of this comment on this page, and definitely not a single response to the criticism that could be described as incendiary. I don't think I even saw a single comment just now that fundamentally pushed back on the premise of this article, let alone in an incendiary way. It's early yet, and maybe this thread will look very different in a few hours though?

I assure you it happens, but the people targetted this way usually quickly learn what is ok and what isn't to say, especially on rust's reddit. If you wanna see examples, look at my reddit profile (same username). I dared to say bevy was full of hype and false promises and tat the money they get would be better spent elsewhere. And look at the hate i received.

One way i've seen to reduce this is prefixing any posts with "I am not criticizing any engine in particular" even if it's blatantly obvious because the criticism only applies to one.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#152

Post by fire_lake »

fidotron wrote: post #71

Starting by saying I fundamentally agree wrt iteration speed. This is ultimately why [C/C++]/Lua was such a thing for a while, and it seems quite plausible that you could benefit from a core engine in rust bound to a scripting language. But ultimately I sense the subtext here is much the same as with other Rust problems: the object oriented baby has been thrown out with the bathwater, often in the name of premature o…

Isn’t the trait system exactly the way out of this tar pit?

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#153

Post by quchen »

wbl wrote: post #96
kleiba wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, nice one! :-) (can only assume you're joking)

Some jokes are serious some serious statements are jokes. Perlis's epigrams are one example.

Inhad to look up what Perlins' (!) Epigrams are. Worth a read!

https://iiif.library.cmu.edu/file/Simon_box00075_fld05959_bd...

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#154

Post by duped »

telekid wrote: post #28

This article describes almost exactly why I think gradual typing is actually a good thing. Type checkers shouldn't get in the way of your code compiling. Yes, the language has to be designed with this property from the beginning. Yes, you should always enforce complete checking in CI. But you should also be able to try half-baked ideas.

> Type checkers shouldn't get in the way of your code compiling.

I don't get it, what's the point of type checking if not to reject invalid programs? The point of a type system isn't simply to add annotations to a programmer (and some type systems can omit them entirely) but to define the subset of programs that are correct within the set of all the programs that can be expressed.

I understand (and have used in production) optionally/gradually typed languages, and without fail codebases will opt for using types up front and not ignoring type check failure because they are always incorrect.

A type error is the compiler/run time telling you "I don't understand what you told me" so why do you want to ignore that?

And if the point is that you want to be able to change the type signature of something without having to refactor giant chunks of code, then that suggests your code is structured poorly to begin with. It should be easy to pull in what you need and play with it without affecting everything else if you haven't done a bad job of architecting the codebase.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#155

Post by evilduck »

candiddevmike wrote: post #91
Aurornis wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of the Rust community are toxic indeed, but I've been around long enough to recognize the same pattern in communities of other hot programming languages or frameworks in their up-and-coming phase. There's something about the new hot language/framework/paradigm that always attracts the type of people who wrap their identity up in the hot new thing. They take any criticisms of their new favorite thing as criticis…

> What I see now in certain Rust communities feels a lot like what I saw in Golang communities in the early days. I had similar experiences when React was the new kid on the block, too. Go was released in 2012, Rust in 2015. Are you saying we are still in the early days of Rust?

Ruby was released in 1995 and didn't really have its heyday of developer hype until Rails came along a decade later. Python didn't start gaining serious traction for about a decade after its 0.9.0 release either. Go's immediate uptake seems like an outlier in programming language lifecycles.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#156

Post by Rican7 »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #115
candiddevmike wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I see now in certain Rust communities feels a lot like what I saw in Golang communities in the early days. I had similar experiences when React was the new kid on the block, too. Go was released in 2012, Rust in 2015. Are you saying we are still in the early days of Rust?

Yes. C was invented in the '70s and only got standardized 20 years later. And Rust's ~20 years is young in systems lang terms (the alternatives, C and C++, are 50 and 40 years old). And nobody had TikTok back then.

> And Rust's ~20 years

huh? It's only been about 9

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#157

Post by kleiba »

shmerl wrote: post #51
kleiba wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you read the part where they said that they're a two-person indie game studio with a development cycle of 3-12 months max?

That's not an argument against parallelism in game design in general.

No, but in practice.

Because the type of game you produce in that time frame isn't typically the one that needs to worry about parallelizing multiple compute units.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#158

Post by mjr00 »

gpm wrote: post #107
mjr00 wrote: post #73

In my experience, fundamentally when you're starting a software project, you need to make a strong up-front decision between two things: 1. I am using technology in order to build this thing. 2. I am building this thing in order to use this technology. Developers often fall in the (2) camp but don't admit it. There's an allure to using the new, sexy tech that will solve all their problems, whether that's Rust, Kubern…

I know rust, I don't know game development (I've dabbled slightly). If I choose to build a game I either need to make it work in rust* or I need to learn a new language (Unity -> C#, Unreal -> blueprints, Godot -> gdscript). So your advice to "just use Unity/Unreal/Godot" is the opposite of your advice "you should stick with what you know" in my case. I suspect the former is good advice, and the latter is therefore w…

This falls in the "you know that what you know isn't enough to build the thing" bucket, presumably. Even if you're a Rust expert, do you know how to manage game asset content pipelines? Sound and music? Have you done graphics programming at all in Rust? How are you going to store levels in your game, and how are you going to make them? How are you doing multiplayer? etc...

You're going to have to learn something new, and it's a bit of a judgment call, but picking up C# or gdscript given that you already know programming should be straightforward compared to re-implementing all of those things yourself in Rust.

Unless, of course, you do know a bunch of great Rust game development libraries that solve all those problems--in which case yeah, building a game in Rust might be the best choice. It's not impossible!

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#159

Post by fire_lake »

nu11ptr wrote: post #19

As much as I love Rust I sometimes wonder if I'd be more productive in a simpler language. If I wrote it every day I'm not sure that would be true, but as a hobbyist coming back to Rust sometimes takes me a bit to get back in the zone. Also, still not a fan of async, as it is woefully incomplete and fairly complicated in some use cases. That said, I just can't go back to Go with nil pointers and lack of decent enums/…

OCaml could be that language.

I’m not convinced that ecosystem is so important for game dev. Once you have a simple graphics library, bindings to BulletPhyiscs etc most of the code is custom simulation code with no integrations needed.

Re: Leaving Rust gamedev after 3 years

#160

Post by bee_rider »

Keyframe wrote: post #22
HL33tibCe7 wrote: post #3

> The problem you're having is only a problem because you haven't tried hard enough. You just need to read another 50,000 word fasterthanlime essay. Then you'll not have problems any more. > That being said, there is an overwhelming force in the Rust community that when anyone mentions they're having problems with Rust the language on a fundamental level, the answer is "you just don't get it yet, I promise once you g…

this reminds me of Lispen of ye olde.. wait untill it clicks, man!

That’s sort of different, right? Rust is just another systems language. Lisp is the language that nobody knows but everybody secretly believes is better than their language of choice.
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