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I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

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Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#151

Post by estebank »

boplicity wrote: post #134
Dudhbbh3343 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and your link make reasonable arguments for capitalizing black, but I don't see any justification (other than to be contrary to supremacist groups) for not doing the same for white, which leaves it inconsistent with the naming of all other racial/ethnic groups.

There's no unified group of white people who want to be called White as opposed to white. Though, maybe I'm wrong? Is there such a group?

There is such a group, but they usually pair "White" with some other word that implies superiority.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#152

Post by boplicity »

estebank wrote: post #151
boplicity wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no unified group of white people who want to be called White as opposed to white. Though, maybe I'm wrong? Is there such a group?

There is such a group, but they usually pair "White" with some other word that implies superiority.

Ha -- I think in that case capitalization makes sense -- especially when the words are paired -- as this at least does some work to make the group identifiably separate from those who do not at all identify with them.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#153

Post by blackmesaind »

gadders wrote: post #121
Jun8 wrote: post #2

This is a fantastic interview with Padgett Powell ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padgett_Powell ), a writer of the Southern tradition. IMO, the two things that make it great ar how candid and fluid Powell's answers are and the hilariously Newspeak of the interviewer's questions. Powell was Don Barthelme's student, his analysis of Barthelme's main thrust here is worth the read alone. If you want to dig deeper on this…

I think they're both trying to show how smart they are - the interviewer in a big-brain intellectual fashion, and the author in an arch way to show what a rebel he is.

Despite Powell's almost cringe worthy rage against "liberal racism", at least his responses had force of personality behind them. The interviewer's questions show a distinct lack of awareness. An interview only works if you're setting the stage for the interviewee, not for yourself.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#154

Post by Amezarak »

basil-rash wrote: post #148
Amezarak wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a mixed metaphor. They are very common in bad writing, which isn't to say they themselves are always bad. The surrounding words make it clear it's not a typo. "which _____ them" does not make sense and would be very rare usage for "berthed". We are born into a time and moored to it. Books are not. Books are distinct from people in this way. That's the point. Since part of the interview is making fun of the…

"which berthed them" makes perfect sense, and fits just as well as any other past participle would in that context. Just because a usage of a word is rare does not mean an experienced author cannot choose to invoke it. In fact, the opposite. Again though, I think the author knew damn well what they were doing and intended for it to be a pun (which would still be arguably berthed-forward ).

To be clear, the usage you're describing is so rare as to be practically nonexistent. You would never use it this way if you were familiar with the word and its usage, only if you knew the word from dictionaries. Look at the rarity even for saying something like "the crew berthed the ship." You just don't say it like that.

Yes, someone "could" do it and we'd understand what they meant. But there's no reason to believe that's what happened here. Maybe "moored" did trigger an association with "birth"/"berth", but "birth" is not a mistake.

"Berthing" is also not a singular, one-time event, any ship has a multitude of berthings over time, in this context it makes no sense for there to be a "time that berthed it" as if it was some singular meaningful event, and it changes "time" into something that "berths" books...what would that mean in this metaphor that a time "berths" a book? Wouldn't other times also berth books in their ports? A time does not "berth" a book, it births a book.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#155

Post by ThrowawayIP »

someuser2345 wrote: post #146
boplicity wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be bizarre for you, but it is often a reasoned and thoughtful use of the word, meaningful in the context of a complex and consistent consideration of the general meaning and usage of words. I encourage you to consider and understand the perspectives of those who do capitalize the word. This serves as an introduction to some people's thinking: https://www.cjr.org/analysis/capital-b-black-styleguide.php Note, th…

It seems to me that this practice is just another example of putting white people on a pedestal. If all other racial groups have "a shared sense of identity and community", then it implies that being white is the default; that the world is split into white and not-white.

You should read the CJR link. The "shared sense of identity and community" is being descendants of the victims of the slave trade and not the color of their skin.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#156

Post by bryanrasmussen »

basil-rash wrote: post #119
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were birthed it might be smarter to say orphaned or alienated or something that follows the parentage metaphor instead of unmoored. If it were berthed it would make more sense to be something like "The destiny of all books is to become unmoored from the time where they were originally berthed". But it is more common in English to use birthed as created than this kind of extended nautical metaphor. And it is mor…

> But it is more common in English to use birthed as created than this kind of extended nautical metaphor. The question isn't whether birthed is more common than extended nautical metaphors in general , the question is given that a nautical metaphor is already in place , what is the likelihood that metaphor is being extended, versus trampled and replaced with another? > If it were berthed it would make more sense to…

I guess your assumption about repetition is due to originally, because otherwise I don't see anything that could lead to that assumption, but that assumption is also rather tenuous, because originally berthed would still be a relevant phrasing to use if the boat becomes unmoored.

That is to say originally berthed also works for having been berthed once and adrift ever since, at least in English which tends to be forgiving about this kind of thing.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#157

Post by someuser2345 »

ThrowawayIP wrote: post #155
someuser2345 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that this practice is just another example of putting white people on a pedestal. If all other racial groups have "a shared sense of identity and community", then it implies that being white is the default; that the world is split into white and not-white.

You should read the CJR link. The "shared sense of identity and community" is being descendants of the victims of the slave trade and not the color of their skin.

That's a strange definition, because it excludes the majority of the world's dark skinned population. If only the descendants of slaves brought to the Americas can claim to be Black, then there are no Black people in Africa. Hell, even Barack Obama can't claim to be Black, since he is a child of immigrants, not slaves.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#158

Post by gadders »

blackmesaind wrote: post #153
gadders wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they're both trying to show how smart they are - the interviewer in a big-brain intellectual fashion, and the author in an arch way to show what a rebel he is.

Despite Powell's almost cringe worthy rage against "liberal racism", at least his responses had force of personality behind them. The interviewer's questions show a distinct lack of awareness. An interview only works if you're setting the stage for the interviewee, not for yourself.

>>An interview only works if you're setting the stage for the interviewee, not for yourself.

Yeah, unless the interviewer is a big name in their own right (so not in this case), your aim is to let the subject shine and fade into the background. The quality of your questions is only judged by what answers they elicit.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#159

Post by lanternfish »

rpmisms wrote: post #105
lanternfish wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual critique - which is articulated in many places - is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage. Instead, "white" was created and exists as the dual to "colored" - a shifting category encompassing many ethnicities that describes their position in a set of power structures, historically colonialism. Consider that "whiteness" has changed considerably over the usage of the ter…

Black isn't an ethnic group either. There are black people from Africa, Pacific islands, Australia, South America, and India. It's a descriptor, not an immutable category that defines you, and it's uniquely used here in America.

In America, captital-B Black is usually used to refer to people who were forcefully disconnected from their ancestry by the imposition of slavery. In many theoretical frameworks, it is an entirely new ethnic group by virtue of their original ethnicity being severed and the forced co-reculturalization through slavery and the subsequent (and continuing) power structures that forcefully and implicitly group them together.

Re: I now lack the juice to fuel the bluster to conceal that I am a simpleton

#160

Post by lanternfish »

hotdogscout wrote: post #98
lanternfish wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual critique - which is articulated in many places - is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage. Instead, "white" was created and exists as the dual to "colored" - a shifting category encompassing many ethnicities that describes their position in a set of power structures, historically colonialism. Consider that "whiteness" has changed considerably over the usage of the ter…

The shift in labels and categories applies to all ethnicities, not just whites, even in the US. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-drop_rule All of the definitions are contested and subject to localities, not just whiteness. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263722423_Not_black... >is that "white" isn't an ethnic group with an actual cultural or racial lineage. None of them are. There's more genetic diversity…

I'm confused - it seems like every example you give here supports the theoretical conclusion above.

"Black" as used in the editorial above is a very specific usage - replacing "African American" for the critical reasons outlined. The reason this group is unique as an ethnicity w.r.t. recategorization is because the structure and violence of slavery isolated them from historic ethnicities and forcefully regrouped them under a new one. This is why in that Habecker paper, peoples with dark skin and african heritage who were not part of that system try to separate themselves from that identity - that's why it exists!

I'd also argue that "Asian" probably _shouldn't_ be capitalized, and there are some theorists who agree. Really, asian only really exists as an ethnic category because Americans historically (and even now) couldn't really be assed to learn the basic geography of Asia and grouped it all.

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