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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#151
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title says "Please don't learn to code". Holy crap, how can so many smart people be so incredibly bad at reading comprehension.

Yes, it does. Jeff's article then proceeds to present a very reasonable argument to consider for why you might not want to code, specifically, there are many useful skills in the world and maybe there's one that would serve you better than coding. Your article completely ignores Jeff's article and presents what amounts to an ad hominem attack on Jeff, claiming he's trying to make beginners feel like losers. Do you ho…

>Jeff's article then proceeds to present a very reasonable argument to consider for why you might not want to code, specifically, there are many useful skills in the world and maybe there's one that would serve you better than coding.

Programming is a super-power, even if you only know a little bit. Knowing how to program gives you abilities to create unequaled in the history of the world. I think that the more people who know how to program, the better, even if they "suck" by comparison to a rock star programmer (or alternately a fat guy who knows C++ [1]).

Maybe 95% of people will never be lead programmer on a commercial product, but almost everyone ends up, e.g., searching Google -- and not being afraid of complex search results can mean the difference between digging through six pages of garbage and getting relevant results right away because you weren't afraid to use the minus operator or other more "advanced" search features.

And probably most people in the workplace have to deal with an Excel spreadsheet from time to time -- being willing to dig into creating more complex formulas because they aren't afraid of lists of functions with parameters would be an obvious side effect of knowing a bit of code.

Regardless, Zed is saying that no one should be telling you that you SHOULDN'T learn to program, period. And I agree.

[1] http://betabeat.com/2012/05/04/pro-tip-from-silicon-valley-s...

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#152
Most of the things zed said here I agree with. What I don't agree with is his attitude toward classic programming books like k&r and GoF. Those books are gold, and I'm sorry, but if you want to master something you need to study the classics. Ask any academic.

Lcthw is great for beginners but once you've read those you need to move on to the more serious stuff.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#153
I'm all for conversation, but is anyone else getting tired of this predictable circlejerk of

1) Industry guy A says this in a blog post!

2) Industry guy B doesn't agree! So he writes a blog post arguing the opposite point.

3) Industry guy C is above this argument, so he posts a blog espousing a deeper philosophy on the matter.

It seems noisy and totally counterproductive, and yet all 3 articles will inevitably show up on the front of HN. Hell, I'll even admit that I've bought into it a few times, but it's just getting a little old. It just smacks of a bunch of bloggers trying to leech off each others' hits.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#155
post #73

It is funny to see how different people interpreted the original post. For me it was about coding being a craft and not a necessary skill like arithmetics, reading or a secondary languages. (This is true not only for coding but for nearly every craft there is.) So I think it was more a post against the "Every one should learn to code, for a better world" movement (if there is such a thing) than a keep on doing what y…

Craft requires skill and the two are deeply intertwined. In opinion, if you think that programming is some mystical "craft" that can't be taught, then you simply just don't know enough about it.

Again funny how people read different things from the same text :-) . That's not what I was trying to say. On the contrary to master a craft you will need to learn several different skills and a craft is something thing that you can learn, but more importantly must learn and study to master. I'm not saying this should be out of reach for most people as is any craft, if you want to learn something you should be able to and I applaud any afford to make it more affordable and easier . but contrary to reading and arithmetic etc it is not something you must learn to be a productive member to society. This is true not only for coding but for any craft, be it plumbing, sewing carpentry, Medical professions etc.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#156
I like Zed, and I like Jeff. I dislike Jeff's article, and really like what Zed is saying about not letting people tell you not to become a programmer (or whatever you want). Well said.

However, Zed did Jeff a real disservice - he put words into Jeff's mouth that he did not say. There are many people who do have that kind of resentment, and I see it all the time, but I can not see where he got that from Jeff's article (or any of Jeff's articles, in fact).

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#157
post #93

I've always believed that one should not use labels. They are self imposed limits. Writing computer programs is not something out of the ordinary. Sure, it is applied math, but it is not quantum physics. I want people to learn. The more people know to code, the more innovation we will all enjoy. There is a generation that is growing up with the power of computing. This is a first in history. We (as a race) will be ab…

>Sure, it is applied math, but it is not quantum physics. Quantum physics, and all other forms of physics are applied math.

What we call physics is not math. Math is how we interpret them. Just like code is how we interpret ideas in a manner that a computer can process.

Quantum physics is not even aptly defined because no one understands them. Sure, we may have some insight into how some things work at the quantum level but we have not a clue.

My point, which I reason you missed, is that people find math hard yet they manage to learn how to program. These days, one can make a reasonable living as a coder without knowing much math.

I'm not even going to pretend to be a genius, not even smart. But I can sure understand that programming is not what fellow engineers make it out to be.

It is neither Quantum physics nor hard. It is, in my opinion, simple (and beautiful).

Discouraging people from learning how to code is akin to discouraging people from learning how to speak.

In a world where the Internet is the only mass medium of communication, knowing how to code enables freedom of thought, and speech.

A freedom we cannot let die.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does. Jeff's article then proceeds to present a very reasonable argument to consider for why you might not want to code, specifically, there are many useful skills in the world and maybe there's one that would serve you better than coding. Your article completely ignores Jeff's article and presents what amounts to an ad hominem attack on Jeff, claiming he's trying to make beginners feel like losers. Do you ho…

To be fair, titles should give some idea of what's in an essay or post. If you use a linkbait headline is it that unreasonable to address the more ridiculous point made by the headline?

To be fair, people should read AND understand what they're raging against, BEFORE they post to the net. Is it too much to ask that bloggers actually comprehend what they're raging against?

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#159
The attack zed makes here on jeff atwood is short sighted and unfair heckling. If you actually read jeff's article, he only argues that coding is not a fundamental skill like writing or arithmetic. From that, zed posits that jeff doesn't want your kids to program. Yeah zed, that's why he worked long and hard on stackoverflow.

Speak for yourself next time.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#160
Like the article. However, I am undecided if I will urge my son to get into coding. I will teach him, but does it really make for a great career? The one good thing about it seems to be that you can create some stuff with very little resources (not everything the world needs, though -yet, anyway). And yet I wonder if other professions are not more likely to lead to happiness. The often cited people interactions could be a factor, for example. Sure, programmers have clients and colleagues, but other jobs might have people interactions that are more emotional in nature.

So how about you, would you urge your kids to become software developers? Poll time?

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