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Home Screen Advantage

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Re: Home Screen Advantage

#151

Post by coldtea »

themoonisachees wrote: post #136
coldtea wrote: post #56

Thank god for Apple's lacklustre support for PWAs. Else iOS would be like macOS, with every second app from a major vendor people need to run (for work, school, banking, etc) would be the equivalent of an Electron monstrocity. Apparently that's the dream of the author.

... Are you somehow under the impression that means companies won't go back to how it was before and simply package their website as an electron app for iOS? This is the reason PWAs were invented in the first place, to avoid every app shipping an entire browser when the user-selected one was right there, if only it presented the app like an app and not a website. Companies aren't going to magically switch to a ios-co…

>... Are you somehow under the impression that means companies won't go back to how it was before and simply package their website as an electron app for iOS?

I'm not sure there that many doing "add to home screen PWAs" in the first place, for them to be "going back".

"Add to home screen PWAs" were used by users (not many either) for convenient access to this or that website they've used, but weren't ever a major app delivery use case in iOS. So, I see the whole post more like much ado about nothing.

And while companies do just package webkit (or use system webkit) + some web app framework as iOS native apps, iOS still encourages developing proper native apps.

Which I'm all for. If Slack, VS Code and co could be forced to create fully native apps on the desktop too, I'd jump at the chance of replacing their Electron stuff with those.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#152

Post by aragilar »

fuzzy2 wrote: post #98
aragilar wrote: post #24

Not an IPhone user: but honesty I'd rather have things open an actual browser tab, as then I can interact with it via all my standard extensions (e.g. adblockers), rather than be opened in a webview. Also, given how often you need to change phones (given build quality), if I have important data and you're a web app, I rather the server be the source of truth, and the phone a cache (so I don't loose data when the phon…

I’d like to quickly address the second paragraph. From my experience, iPhones last until their software support runs out, barring any accidents. Furthermore, PWAs need not be offline applications (so TFA overblows the data loss potential ever so slightly) but often work exactly like you want them to. I use the Outlook PWA. It’s great because I don’t have to let my company manage (part of) my phone.

Sure, caches make sense, and are where PWAs are a legitimate solution. But PWAs also are sold as a replacement for native apps (hint: they're not, but a whole bunch of native apps should be PWAs, or just static sites...), and the author of TFA does subscribe to that view.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#153

Post by aragilar »

sebstefan wrote: post #79
aragilar wrote: post #24

Not an IPhone user: but honesty I'd rather have things open an actual browser tab, as then I can interact with it via all my standard extensions (e.g. adblockers), rather than be opened in a webview. Also, given how often you need to change phones (given build quality), if I have important data and you're a web app, I rather the server be the source of truth, and the phone a cache (so I don't loose data when the phon…

With Firefox Mobile on Android, you can confiure webviews to open as Firefox webviews as well, and my extensions seem to be running because I don't see ads there. They're still webviews of course, you don't get the tabs, bookmarks etc. Just webviews with extension support.

That's what I do as well, but still sometimes it's chrome that opens, and so a "always really open an actual browser, never a webview" would be preferrable (and more recognisable when preferences are ignored.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#154

Post by aragilar »

boomskats wrote: post #97

The number of apologists and distractors in this comments section honestly makes me feel like it's been brigaded. I'm amazed, given how well informed this crowd typically is. As for the topic being discussed - Apple have gone out of their way for the last _decade_ to avoid implementing things like ServiceWorkers properly. I remember having this same conversation back in 2015. It is a real shame, as things like the pr…

The issue is things that would make sense in a workplace setting (which should be on work devices, but that ship has sailed), have real social and privacy issues (see MDMs being used as stalkerware). I worked on an app which really did need as much sensor data as possible (field notebooks for academics), but you really wouldn't want to give that level of access without oversight. The more information you can collect without needing some kind of review (which I totally agree is rarely sufficient), the more this is an issue. Ideally there are different levels (e.g. business, personal, and locked down), and you need to do the setup in person so as to reduce harm.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#155

Post by JimDabell »

mdhb wrote: post #147
the_gipsy wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to not understand the difference between income and profit.

He seems to have a habit of doing this. A few weeks ago I was also stuck in a situation where he appeared to play dumb and refused to acknowledge the contradictions in his positions and the level of indignation that followed afterwards was unbelievable.

No, you were repeatedly insulting me and when I rejected that, you told me I was getting worked up and continued insulting me. You were saying that it literally wasn’t possible to honestly disagree with you:

> this also isn’t a legitimate difference of opinion scenario.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39026820

You were being unreasonable and insulting. If you are going to continue to act like that, how about we stay out of each other’s way? Don’t drag this thread down into a flamewar as well.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#156

Post by neoberg »

aragilar wrote: post #24

Not an IPhone user: but honesty I'd rather have things open an actual browser tab, as then I can interact with it via all my standard extensions (e.g. adblockers), rather than be opened in a webview. Also, given how often you need to change phones (given build quality), if I have important data and you're a web app, I rather the server be the source of truth, and the phone a cache (so I don't loose data when the phon…

these are not inherent problems to PWAs tho. The data loss situation is pretty much the same for any native app. They can choose to be local only or sync to a server. Apple can also support iCloud for PWAs in theory.

Also there is nothing stopping extensions to work for PWAs. They do on Chrome desktop and you can disable/enable extensions per app. Not an Android user (yet) so I don't know how is it on mobile.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#157

Post by WA »

meibo wrote: post #115
boomskats wrote: post #97

The number of apologists and distractors in this comments section honestly makes me feel like it's been brigaded. I'm amazed, given how well informed this crowd typically is. As for the topic being discussed - Apple have gone out of their way for the last _decade_ to avoid implementing things like ServiceWorkers properly. I remember having this same conversation back in 2015. It is a real shame, as things like the pr…

Most of the people on this site have either worked for Apple before or hold Apple stock. Regulation is directly reaching into their pockets. Also obvious by how this post is already on 14th place after 2 hours, with more than 200 votes. (Edit: now 31, 3 hours in)

5 hours in, place 65. It doesn't even have the typical flamewar indicators such as # of comments > # of upvotes.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#158

Post by neoberg »

I've always been an Apple ecosystem user. Both main devices and accesories. Apart from my first one, all my smartphones had been Apple. I've only used Apple computers since 15 years.

But that's it. Once my current iPhone breaks (and I took my protector off), I'm not buying another one. This is malicious compliance at the expense of user.

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#159

Post by disgruntledphd2 »

JimDabell wrote: post #143
the_gipsy wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to not understand the difference between income and profit.

I do, but unless you think Apple’s hundreds of billions in hardware revenue is some kind of loss leader, it’s irrelevant. Apple are a hardware company. It’s bizarre that you are trying to argue otherwise. They make more money from selling consumer hardware than practically every other company in the world.

> Apple are a hardware company. It’s bizarre that you are trying to argue otherwise. They make more money from selling consumer hardware than practically every other company in the world.

You are definitely correct in that Apple are a hardware company.

However (and I think this is the point of disagreement) much of their revenue growth (and presumably profits, but that's harder to assess) comes from services, and from a stock price perspective revenue/profit growth is what matters (you're only as good as your last quarter and all that).

Understanding this is key to understanding lots of Apple's business decisions recently (my favourite was destroying the business model of their competitors using ATT and then refusing to declare their own ad business ATT compliant).

Re: Home Screen Advantage

#160

Post by WA »

coldtea wrote: post #151
themoonisachees wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... Are you somehow under the impression that means companies won't go back to how it was before and simply package their website as an electron app for iOS? This is the reason PWAs were invented in the first place, to avoid every app shipping an entire browser when the user-selected one was right there, if only it presented the app like an app and not a website. Companies aren't going to magically switch to a ios-co…

> ... Are you somehow under the impression that means companies won't go back to how it was before and simply package their website as an electron app for iOS? I'm not sure there that many doing "add to home screen PWAs" in the first place, for them to be "going back". "Add to home screen PWAs" were used by users (not many either) for convenient access to this or that website they've used, but weren't ever a major ap…

Many many apps are made with JS, HTML and CSS and run in a thin wrapper on top of WKWebView (Cordova, nowadays Capacitor). It is Electron sans a browser engine and has been around forever. Support for PWAs don't change a thing about how apps are developed at all. They only change how apps are deployed. Hence, your whole point about "better quality apps by banning PWAs" is completely wrong.
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