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The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

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Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#151

Post by poulsbohemian »

We've gone through three refrigerators in about four years...the first one had survived more than ten years and had just run its course -- all the cheap plastic had broken on it, but it still kept things cold. Replaced with a second-hand LG, and you know how that went - compressor went out after two years and would have cost as much as a new one to repair. Bought an outlet store domestic brand (I forget which one now) - freezer didn't work, back to the store it went. Bought a Kenmore (I think?)... turns out it is one of the models that has known issues, and the parts backlog is at least 6 months. Living in small town America, the problem is made worse because we only have two, maybe three repair options - first they tell you they won't work on LG, but whatever you buy they won't work on that either. Good luck getting a warranty honored on anything. Have decided when I remodel the kitchen, I'm going big - some kind of commercial fridge, as it is clear that consumer grade stuff simply doesn't work. If you are going to spend $3K a pop on a fridge (the prices have gotten crazy too!) and they aren't going to last more than a couple years, just spend the $10K on a commercial model and get your decade+ out of it.

And then there's Bosch, etc... now, I'd like to buy a Bosch, but my current partner doesn't want to spend the money, she likes buying outlet / second-hand / feeling like she got a deal, which is a problem. But - even the top end consumer Bosch is relatively small and I'm not sure the plastic bits are any more durable. I do like the dual compressor system though.

And then there's dishwashers... oh Maytag, how you've fallen thanks to VC/ PE...

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#152

Post by greedo »

davidmurdoch wrote: post #145
greedo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering Toyota's worldwide marketshare, making them the exception might not be helpful.

Its like 12%; certainly not a majority.

You're using a BMW as an anecdote yet quibbling about Toyota's marketshare? Of course not every single care manufactured today will last forever. Some are junk. Some, like Toyota are quite good and with proper care and maintenance survive a long time. I could add Nissan and Honda to this group. There are other makers that are also building very good automobiles.

Today's automobiles are generally very reliable and with proper maintenance, long lasting.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#153

Post by moandcompany »

saiya-jin wrote: post #99
moandcompany wrote: post #14

It's hard to maintain a revenue stream if your product is good enough to last, so the products are engineered to either be part of a subscription, to be replaced far sooner than necessary, or both. They're worried more about their revenue sustainability than they are actual product "sustainability." The "buy-it-for-life" brands ran into this problem because once you sell someone the classic product, they aren't going…

I don't agree, its like saying Victorinox/Wenger ran out of business because everybody eventually got that small pocket knife of theirs and due to its quality nobody is replacing those. Yet reality is more like - completely new markets are opening, new rich people look for quality good brands, or father happy with his knife for 20 years will buy another one for his son. Or Miele, brand completely built on just its pe…

Victorinox/Wenger are good examples of a brand associated with a quality product (the original swiss army knife) that now extends that brand over to backpacks, luggage, etc.

Personally, I really like the Filson brand from the United States, but they also suffered from their core products being too-good, ownership changes eventually to a private equity fund, and ended up being driven into a lifestyle brand with a variety of otherwise unrelated product lines and collaborations (e.g. t-shirts) which often get manufactured overseas with lesser quality of materials and construction.

Another example might include other American "heritage" brands of footwear, such as Red Wings and Wolverine; they still make and sell their heritage products at a premium price but have been driven to use their brand to sell other, lesser quality goods with better profit margins.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#154

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #138
cesarb wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People move into new homes. Don't people bring their appliances with them when moving?

Generally not in the US. When you make an offer to buy a home, there will be a section that lists the furnishings/appliances/things-not-nailed-down that are included in your offer. Your real estate agent is going to check the boxes for appliances without even asking you. You could tell the agent not to do that, and the seller could say no. But that would be unusual.

wut?

I live in the US and I don't know of anyone who chose not to bring their appliances with them.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#155

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #150
Kon-Peki wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally not in the US. When you make an offer to buy a home, there will be a section that lists the furnishings/appliances/things-not-nailed-down that are included in your offer. Your real estate agent is going to check the boxes for appliances without even asking you. You could tell the agent not to do that, and the seller could say no. But that would be unusual.

I can tell you as a real estate agent I almost always recommend to my clients that they leave the appliances... appliances are a pain to move! No guarantee that your old appliances will fit in the respective places in the house you are buying, likelihood of beating up the walls and floors as you move them in and out of houses, and often it will cost you as much to move it as it would to just buy a new one. Further -…

none of this is anywhere near true.

A new refrigerator is roughly $1k for a cheap one, don't tell me someone is going to charge more than that to move a single item. Hell, I've paid for an entire move for less than that.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#156

Post by poulsbohemian »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #155
poulsbohemian wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can tell you as a real estate agent I almost always recommend to my clients that they leave the appliances... appliances are a pain to move! No guarantee that your old appliances will fit in the respective places in the house you are buying, likelihood of beating up the walls and floors as you move them in and out of houses, and often it will cost you as much to move it as it would to just buy a new one. Further -…

none of this is anywhere near true. A new refrigerator is roughly $1k for a cheap one, don't tell me someone is going to charge more than that to move a single item. Hell, I've paid for an entire move for less than that.

Dude - consider mainstream buying options like say, Costco, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. There are apartment sized refrigerators going for nearly $1000. Can you find a super low end model for under $1K? Sure - but that's not what the majority of people are putting into their homes for a family unit of 2+ people. Can I throw a washer and dryer into the back of my truck? Sure - but that's not what people are going to do if they are moving outside their immediate vicinity. At minimum they are backing up the U-Haul, at the high end they are bringing in movers.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#157

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #156
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

none of this is anywhere near true. A new refrigerator is roughly $1k for a cheap one, don't tell me someone is going to charge more than that to move a single item. Hell, I've paid for an entire move for less than that.

Dude - consider mainstream buying options like say, Costco, Home Depot, Lowes, etc. There are apartment sized refrigerators going for nearly $1000. Can you find a super low end model for under $1K? Sure - but that's not what the majority of people are putting into their homes for a family unit of 2+ people. Can I throw a washer and dryer into the back of my truck? Sure - but that's not what people are going to do if…

sounds like you agree with me, the idea that it's cheaper to buy a new refrigerator vs moving it is ridiculous.

People will rationalize all sorts of poor decisions.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#158

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

laurencerowe wrote: post #44
fshbbdssbbgdd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a good source of data on this? On the one hand, I could believe that newer cars have better engineering which makes many components more reliable. On the other hand, crumple zones and expensive bodywork mean that modern cars are Fabregé eggs that can be easily totaled in minor accidents. And increases in the complexity and scope of what cars do can increase the cost of maintenance and make them go obsolete f…

The average age of cars on the road in 2023 was 13.6 years up from 11.5 in 2015 and 9.9 in 2003. https://finance.yahoo.com/average-age-vehicles-u-roads-13030...

That’s a good start, but it would help to know more about how long cars from different model years last. Those numbers would be consistent with increasing reliability over time, but that’s not the only possible explanation. For example, if there is a cohort of 2000-2010 year cars that keeps running and getting older, while more recent cars are replaced more often, it could result in an increasing average age over time while new cars get less reliable.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#159

Post by davidmurdoch »

greedo wrote: post #152
davidmurdoch wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its like 12%; certainly not a majority.

You're using a BMW as an anecdote yet quibbling about Toyota's marketshare? Of course not every single care manufactured today will last forever. Some are junk. Some, like Toyota are quite good and with proper care and maintenance survive a long time. I could add Nissan and Honda to this group. There are other makers that are also building very good automobiles. Today's automobiles are generally very reliable and wit…

My anecdote was about how new cars, including BMWs, aren't reliable as my old BMW.

Generally, I think a lot of older cars were built to be more reliable than cars are today.

The automatic transmission fluid in a new BMW is considered "lifetime" by BMW. BMW defines "lifetime" as 100000 miles. They advise to never change the fluid unless the transmission is being rebuilt.

Re: The lifespan of large appliances is shrinking

#160

Post by jjav »

smileysteve wrote: post #121
jjav wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More cars are lasting well past 100K miles and often 200K miles. Cars have lasted over 100K since forever and 200K isn't a big deal. All my cars from the 80s and 90s have over 200K miles.

American car brands traditionally did not last 100k miles until the Japanese brands flooded the American markets in the 1980s. There are performance automobiles, though, (Porsche, Nissan) that don't use hydraulic lifters in their "consumer" vehicles and require valve adjustment at 100k miles. 200k miles is actually a pretty big deal still, as it's about the lifetime of efficiency valve stem seals, crank bearings, and…

But you're mixing things which are regular maintenance with things which are a larger repair job.

It almost feels like you're saying the mileage a car lasts is about how many miles it can last without maintenance?

Adjusting valves (on cars that need it) is a regular maintenance item.

Cat converters, timing chains or belts are also maintenance items. Same for bushings, hoses, seals. None of these are a big deal. (Well, a few seals might be, depending on access).

Valve stems and crank bearings are a more major engine rebuild. I've never had to do this on any car even into the 200k-250k mile range. But if it is necessary, the car is back on the road after that, so it still "lasts".

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