Earlier quoted context omitted.
Some numbers here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tidal_power#Principle (last paragraph). Tidal energy is wasted by natural coastlines all the time, being converted into heat and erosion. If this effect is constant, it looks like the day gets longer by 7 minutes 12 seconds every 36.5 million years. (I calculated that because it's a 1% reduction in rotational energy.) Human extraction of tidal energy is much smaller th…
Erosion is not always wastage.
28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
151–160 of 192 posts
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#152Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
A kettle uses ~1.5KW, a geyser ~2KW, an oven ~5KW, a stove about ~3KW. These are fairly high estimates I got from some quick googling. If you add these all up, and account for some more appliances (HVAC, fridge/freezer etc.), I think it is safe to estimate that a household less than 20KW at peak, even though it is a fairly high estimate. So going backwards from there, 1.2MW = 1200KW and 1200KW / 20KW = 60 households…
(What’s a geyser?)
Spanish wikipedia is the only with a picture of the internals: https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calentador_de_agua_circulante?...
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#154Since the number 1.2MW didn't mean much to me, modern on-shore wind turbines seem to supply 3-4MW and offshore ones 8 - 12MW. But this seems a lot easier to transport and install compared to cranes and the nightmare of navigating turbine blades on trucks through places. And if these hold up to water and don't cause too many problems for wildlife, there would be a lot less discussions about these "messing up my skylin…
"The FADs are located 2.4 to 25 miles offshore and in depths of 80 to 1,510 fathoms." -- https://www.lahainanews.com/sports/local-sports/2016/05/19/s...
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also worth noting that trying to extrapolate the effects of current technology at this timescale is pointless. There will be tide changes in human’s technological capabilities long before there could be any reckoning for over-extraction of the Earth’s rotational energy. For example, in our ability to bring mass into orbit. Add a couple orders of magnitude in that capability, and humans can start directly tuning the E…
How much dust would you need to shoot up to affect a statistically significant change in the amount of sunlight getting through?
Roughly 100 million tons annually of lunar regolith launched into L1 by railgun.
https://journals.plos.org/climate/article?id=10.1371/journal...
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also worth noting that trying to extrapolate the effects of current technology at this timescale is pointless. There will be tide changes in human’s technological capabilities long before there could be any reckoning for over-extraction of the Earth’s rotational energy. For example, in our ability to bring mass into orbit. Add a couple orders of magnitude in that capability, and humans can start directly tuning the E…
> within the next ~50 years Very optimistic. We haven't even been to the moon again in 50 years. 500 years, maybe.
Beyond that, “we haven’t been to the moon” isn’t a fair summary of our tech imo - a HUGE portion of that is political in origin, and private companies have invented reusable rockets which is pretty damn important
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#157Earlier quoted context omitted.
Meet project Atlantropa, a proposed plan to dam the Mediterranean (or more accurately the atlantic ocean) at the strait of Gibraltar. A project so absurd and gigantic it would deserve its own thread really. https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantropa
Meanwhile, Egypt wants to expand the mediterranian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qattara_Depression_Project
It seems outright feasible and sensible in comparison.
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
> within the next ~50 years Very optimistic. We haven't even been to the moon again in 50 years. 500 years, maybe.
With all seriousness, I’ll throw in “the unexpected breakthroughs in intuitive AI will aid this effort.” I sincerely think that LLMs will at least make R&D cheaper. Beyond that, “we haven’t been to the moon” isn’t a fair summary of our tech imo - a HUGE portion of that is political in origin, and private companies have invented reusable rockets which is pretty damn important
How, exactly? Because to me it's just as likely that LLMs will hallucinate alternative solutions based on their flawed world model which will send numerous unfortunate researchers on wild goose chases that turn out to be exactly that. And I expect the volume of impossible-yet-probable-sounding solutions will dwarf the actual costs saved by using an Automated Induction system.
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#159Since the number 1.2MW didn't mean much to me, modern on-shore wind turbines seem to supply 3-4MW and offshore ones 8 - 12MW. But this seems a lot easier to transport and install compared to cranes and the nightmare of navigating turbine blades on trucks through places. And if these hold up to water and don't cause too many problems for wildlife, there would be a lot less discussions about these "messing up my skylin…
> too many problems for wildlife There were a meta-analysis regarding population of birds in areas with/without wind turbines, found no statistically significant difference (unlike coal, where difference was huge)
Re: 28-ton, 1.2-megawatt tidal kite is now exporting power to the grid
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Tidal Energy Is Not Renewable": https://cs.stanford.edu/people/zjl/pdf/tide.pdf Previous discussion on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37383283
Thanks for this! Something has always bugged me when I hear about big plans for tidal energy. TLDR, the 1000 year estimate is is derived from the geometric series proof(i needed a refresher). Wolfram explains it pretty well: https://mathworld.wolfram.com/GeometricSeries.html ...then i needed a refresher on exponents and logarithms: https://wou.edu/mathcenter/files/2015/09/Exponents-and-Logar... It's good to do the ma…
After reading a bit of the comments thread above, i couldn't resist adding a bit more.
> The single most important assumption in this paper is that energy consumption will increase by 2% per year.
Quick reality check: 1.02^1000years = 398,264,652x increase! This could potentially be an unrealistic projection. Let's consider what we know from the article(and google).
Here's a few numbers pulled from the article for reference: ~1.73 x 10^20 J tidal energy lost per year naturally 5.67x10^20 J was the total global energy consumption in 2013(10^18 is 1%)
So 398,264,652 x 5.67x10^18 J = 2.258 x 10^27 J! That does seem like a lot. In comparison total sunlight absorbed on earth's surface each year is roughly 3.85 x 10^24 J.[1]
> It might also be that tidal energy extracted by humans, comes out of some fixed 'budget'
So lets compare that to what is already being consumed and think about what amount of energy generated might be realistic. Top google result tells me global energy consumption is about 5.80 x 10^20 J2 these days.[2]
I guess the next question is what would be a realistic upper limit for the amount of energy we could harvest globally from the tides? Referencing the Stanford article again, we have an estimated annual energy loss of 1.73 x 10^20 J total from natural friction of the tides globally. Is it realistic to think we can harvest an equivalent amount of energy for the grid? I wonder what sort of impact a turbine project that size would have on the earth? Is it even possible? For sake of being rational, let's say we think a network of turbines 1% of that size(10^18J) is potentially possible. How many turbines might you need to make for something that size?
So lets take the kite-turbines from the article at the top. Each one of the produces 1.2MW. Does that mean it produces 3.78×10^13 J annually? Or is it closer to half that(1.89×10^13J)? In a 10^13 J ballpark we would need to produce about 10^17 to approach our max limit 10^20 J harvested. Correspondingly a project 1% the size still needs 10^15(a quadrillion) of these turbines globally. That seems like a lot and it just sort of seems in my mind(maybe i'm wrong) that there would be some sort of environmental impact. Also, now that you have shrunk your project the total energy produced is now a fraction of 1% of the current total global annual energy consumption, and grows more insignificant every year consumption rises.
Not sure I agree that population growth is over, but isn't it true that energy consumption per capita is also increasing? Either way I think we still have the realistic expectation of continued 2% growth in global energy consumption for the next few decades at least, doubling every 35 years. Unless we can find ways to harvest larger quantities of tidal energy without breaking the ocean it just doesn't seem like a silver bullet to me as far as climate goes. Assuming we could harvest 25% the quantity of what occurs naturally, that only gives us 0.4325x10^20J annually, which is only 7% current global consumption - in 35 years that number will only equal 3.5% of the total consumption. I guess it's a question of how much you want to screw up the environment in order to save it.
TLDR, saving the planet with tidal energy seems kind of misrepresented imho. Build wooden megaliths instead. ;)
[1] https://www.ucdavis.edu/climate/definitions/how-is-solar-pow...
[2] https://www.theworldcounts.com/challenges/climate-change/ene...