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Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

canada.ca

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Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#151

Post by brailsafe »

slily wrote: post #145
brailsafe wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not OP but did add my own take in a sibling comment; as much as I tend to enjoy my time in the states, I just don't like the vibe as much, and there's a subtle but noticable relief I get when I return home. Maybe it's the airport terminals that make me feel as though I'm appealing to get out of prison every time I have to layover there.

Some places I've lived in the US made me wish to return to Canada, others made me thankful I didn't. If you've never lived there long-term of course it won't feel like home. I know it's tempting to make excuses for the place you live, but I think you're downplaying the damage that Trudeau's government has done to the country. The US has its issues too, but greater state independence and a stronger constitution help.

I certainly wouldn't suggest such a move would be broadly regrettable, but don't agree with the implication that I'm making excuses. Many people are attracted to the subtle cultural, political, and financial differences the U.S provides, some aren't, and that's ok. The countries and people are more similar than they are different. The problems Canada is currently facing though is partially to do with stagnant cultural values (that are also more similar to the U.S than different) and deeply flawed policy at multiple levels of governance both current and historical, and Trudeau but he's just the latest. A nation is more than it's current set of politicians though—obviously also true of the U.S—and to leave for more money would mean I'd be dismissing the factors that exist despite the bureaucracy.

It just depends what your personal circumstances are whether that's a reasonable deal or not, and it's not for me to judge one way or another. If I could make U.S software money from Canada, it's a no-brainer, I just can't and wouldn't really want to live there long-term. The outcome I could hypothetically have doesn't seem all that compelling, but it probably does for a great number of people for obvious reasons.

For me though, there's something a bit too intensely capitalist I guess that rubs me the wrong way. So many things and people are American size, and super, and mega, and excessive, and seemingly lacking nuance in a way I just don't like. I do get used to it and forget I'm there, and always enjoy the visit, but I can't see myself being there for more than 6 months.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#152

Post by [deleted] »

xvector wrote: post #124
tailspin2019 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I’ve never personally seen a problem with this law. We’ve made plenty of dumb decisions as a country but I’d say trying to keep knives off the streets is not one of them.

Your laws aren't keeping any knives off the streets. Your knife laws are contradictory, nonsensical, and result in normal people being hurt more than stopping any actual criminals: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39310586

[deleted]

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#153

Post by kstenerud »

ireflect wrote: post #144
neilv wrote: post #10

The Flipper Zero is a general-purpose tool and STEM educational device. By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers and scientists a bit. How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? Flipper Zero can't crack hard encryption. Is the real problem that cars were made with security that they already knew was negligently weak at the time? If so, is a recall of those cars more appr…

This is great. I rewrote it in my own words and sent it to my local Canadian MP, as well as Dominic LeBlanc who is the Minister of Public Safety. Here's my template: I am a Canadian citizen in your riding (A1B 2C3) and multiple business owner in the technology sector. As an expert in the field of electronics and information security, I am concerned about the ISED’s initiative to ban Flipper Zero and similar devices,…

You may want to add that the average person's phone is many times more powerful and capable than a flipper. The dual use tools that can steal cars are so ubiquitous in society (such as a cheap laptop) that no amount of device banning will make a lick of difference.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#155

Post by fortran77 »

AnarchismIsCool wrote: post #131
fortran77 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've learned a lot from mine, especially how many types of access control RFID work. And I've been working on commercial SDR projects for the past decade.

What kind of projects? I've been looking at moving that direction but most of the fun SDR work is classified stuff and the commercial world seems pretty happy with ancient superhet architectures for the most part.

Position, navigation, and time from “signals of opportunity” (I.e., existing radio signals that aren’t GPS)

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#156

Post by spangry »

kevingadd wrote: post #111
advael wrote: post #102

So if I'm reading this right, they're banning something that is too underpowered to run the exploits people are using to steal cars (which are only possible in the first place because car companies' threat model is mostly about their customers rather than thieves) in order to pretend to do something about car theft I've been pretty happy on balance with measures introduced through direct democracy in recent years (mo…

The main problem with direct democracy as performed in the US is that it's trivial to manipulate with sufficiently large ad campaigns, because the average voter is not super well informed on most topics and is usually not motivated to dig deeply when i.e. a ride-sharing company spends a cool hundred million to get the legal outcome they want. This is not to say that the alternative is immune to these problems, but as…

To add to the counter-argument you've already acknowledged, direct democracy at least forces the lobbying (and potential misinformation) out into the open. I think this particular part of the argument might boil down to "who is more likely to be able to discount misinformation and value accurate information, the general public or a handful of elected representatives and their private advisors"?

Sufficiently motivated and rich people are also motivated to repeatedly put their pet issues to our political representatives (sometimes alongside big political contributions).

Seems like a case of pick your poison (and antidotes).

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#157

Post by neilv »

ireflect wrote: post #144
neilv wrote: post #10

The Flipper Zero is a general-purpose tool and STEM educational device. By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers and scientists a bit. How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? Flipper Zero can't crack hard encryption. Is the real problem that cars were made with security that they already knew was negligently weak at the time? If so, is a recall of those cars more appr…

This is great. I rewrote it in my own words and sent it to my local Canadian MP, as well as Dominic LeBlanc who is the Minister of Public Safety. Here's my template: I am a Canadian citizen in your riding (A1B 2C3) and multiple business owner in the technology sector. As an expert in the field of electronics and information security, I am concerned about the ISED’s initiative to ban Flipper Zero and similar devices,…

Very nice. I like how concisely you hit the points. And also that you can note you're a constituent, tech business owner, and tech expert.

If different people want to mix up approaches, and hit various notes, to see what resonates, a couple thoughts (as a tech nerd, not a political communicator):

* "Information security research" has different connotations for different people. No matter how professionally you conduct yourself and respect the term, and no matter how much you promote the term positively as professional... if a particular reader considers the term to be a euphemism for behavior they think should be curtailed, and they think that's the only use of FZ, that might hurt your effort. (Unless you can find a way to promote both at the same time, to those readers, without compromising on either more than you want to.)

* All the hobbyist experimenting and building things, by kids and adults alike, I consider constructionist "education", which is valued. And I suspect it doesn't hurt to say "STEM", as a keyword for the kinds of jobs and economic development this leads to. (Imagine kids figuring out how modern devices work, which today requires more than just unscrewing an appliance and finding the motor and gears. Or getting interested in the RF that backs much of our global technology infrastructure, and inspired to pursue engineering or science. Or using that knowledge to build things that help get them into universities, or that become a tech startup company.)

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#158

Post by nikanj »

voisin wrote: post #35
dcan wrote: post #4

Like every other wide-spanning law the Canadian Government has passed lately (including the one on firearms and the soon-to-pass adult-content on the internet), I imagine they will ban swathes of legal products that use RF and do nothing to actually prevent crimes from occurring. Thanks to our Parliament!

Sort of like banning foreign buyers of homes to cover up the fact that they’ve given into NIMBYs for four decades and not built enough housing to keep pace with the population!

That one was made to 1) Keep happy the voters who don't have housing, by making it look like they're doing something 2) Keep happy the voters who do have housing, by keep the housing costs sky-high

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#159

Post by patmcc »

15457345234 wrote: post #64
user_7832 wrote: post #55

Relevant part: > Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada (ISED) Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada will work with Canadian companies, and the automotive industry, to develop new solutions to protect vehicles against theft and to assist with recovery of stolen vehicles. > ISED will pursue all avenues to ban devices used to steal vehicles by copying the wireless signals for remote keyless e…

> What would be okay is to ban the use of an F0 to steal a car. Ban carrying them. If it's truly an educational tool you don't need to carry it around with you. Same as (in the UK) carrying a set of lockpicks is grounds to be arrested for 'going equipped' unless you're a locksmith.

I quite like being able to carry the things I (legally!) own, as long as my intent is innocent. I should damn well be able to carry lockpicks or an F0 or a pocket knife without it being assumed I'm a criminal.

Re: Canadian government banning Flipper Zero to combat auto theft

#160

Post by farhanhubble »

andy99 wrote: post #13
kayodelycaon wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don’t need to. Banning the easy method will stop the majority of cases. Most people won’t bother with a slightly less easy method requiring the most basic of technical skills or more research than the first Google result. Similar to how moving ssh to a non-standard port stops most attacks.

Canadian car theft is organized criminals with connections across the supply chain shipping vehicles to Africa and the middle east. It's not kids joyriding. They will have no issue sourcing other methods of theft.

Next the govt. might ban shipping to these regions.
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