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'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

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Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#151

Post by Clamchop »

h2odragon wrote: post #46
golergka wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? It was clear right from the series start that he has problem with the drug.

His problem is that others disapprove. He goes cold turkey a couple times and proves that he's in actual pain. I ain't watched much of the show for a while, my wife is fond of it.

Closer to the end of the series, he basically loses his mind and is destructive to himself and others. An entire plot line was House hallucinating that he had quit and recovered from withdrawals (among other imagined or altered events) only for it to be revealed that he was using more than ever.

So, he canonically has more problems with drugs than social disapproval.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#152

Post by drakenot »

Apocryphon wrote: post #134
bediger4000 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alfred Bester has fallen into obscurity for sure. How do you figure Bester and not Lem as the grandfather?

John Brunner is closer to being a cyberpunk grandfather, imo

I just remember reading The Stars My Destination from Bester and noticing all these elements:

* Mega-corporations with immense power and influence over all of society (Kodak of Kodak)

* Drug dens offering synthetic designer drugs that made people feel as if they were various animals.

* The protagonist receiving an upgrade to his nervous system, including a tooth-based switch that allowed him to 'speed up' for brief periods.

* Status symbols of the ultra-rich, such as using the most elaborate physical conveyances in an era of effortless teleportation.

I'm probably missing some, but it felt like such a prototype novel to something like Neuromancer and was written in 1956!

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#153

Post by DoItToMe81 »

Spivak wrote: post #93
pookha wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the weirdest and most interesting things I've ever seen was how this crazy book created gang violence by illustrating dystopian gang violence...And I can guarantee you that some of the youth ("hooligans") in England that were committing Droog gang violence -- inspired by this book -- have reformed as elderly adults. It's not unrealistic. When you remove people out of cults and gangs and they begin to self-refl…

This right here is the tension between "my work doesn't support the whole point is showing it's bad" while simultaneously portraying the bad thing in a positive light while the narrative does the condemning. The problem with demonizing things is that demons are cool. If you want your condemnation to be effective in fiction you have to make the characters doing it pathetic miserable losers. You can even have the narra…

WTF, no. Media absolutely shouldn't be lowered to children's cartoons for adults. That's absurd. And nobody in the world who isn't already completely insane finds gang rape 'cool', nor does this book or movie portray it positively.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#154

Post by saint_fiasco »

ljf wrote: post #31
sevagh wrote: post #16

Tangential: I remember reading a criticism about the South Park ginger episode leading to redheads getting bullied. I was curious (and still haven't wrapped my head around) what blame can be placed, if any. 1. Shitty people had latent bullying and cruelty instincts and South Park gave them the idea of diverting that to redheads 2. People were just chilling until South Park taught them to be cruel and bully gingers

It is hard to know. My old work colleague took great efforts to keep his son from watching any TV, films or cartoons - they did loads of art, listened to music and went to the theatre a little. He was a pretty chill kid when I met him. One day his son played at a friend's house when he was 3, nearly 4, and ended up watching a hulk cartoon. He spent the next 3 weeks running around the house screaming 'hulk smash' and…

The cartoon makes children act a certain way, then the parents teach them that it's not OK to imitate what they see on TV.

If that kid was kept from watching TV for nearly 4 years, he never had a chance to learn that copying things from TV is wrong, so really it was both the TV at their friend's house and the previous lack of TV at his house that made him act that way.

For adults this shouldn't matter, because they are responsible for their own morality. If you showed a Hulk cartoon to an adult member of a previously uncontacted tribe, they probably won't hulk smash obnoxiously for three weeks.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#155

Post by IshKebab »

miles wrote: post #143
IshKebab wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's silly. Just because a murderer mentions a book about murder doesn't mean it made them into a murderer. It just means murderers like books about murder.

A Clockwork Orange has been cited in a murder case. It is not the first time [1] mentions a number of cases linked to the book or movie, including this one: > Arguably the most notorious of all is Peter Foster, who the British press dubbed the ‘Clockwork Orange killer’. > Foster would beat and torture women and was found guilty of murdering two of his former wives. A court heard how he would dress up as the film's pr…

I mean.. do you think this crazy murderer would not have murdered anyone had he not read this book? Come on.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#156

Post by solumunus »

IshKebab wrote: post #155
miles wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A Clockwork Orange has been cited in a murder case. It is not the first time [1] mentions a number of cases linked to the book or movie, including this one: > Arguably the most notorious of all is Peter Foster, who the British press dubbed the ‘Clockwork Orange killer’. > Foster would beat and torture women and was found guilty of murdering two of his former wives. A court heard how he would dress up as the film's pr…

I mean.. do you think this crazy murderer would not have murdered anyone had he not read this book? Come on.

Exactly. The guy was a violent rapist and that’s WHY he was a fan of ACO. It’s honestly mystifying to me that some people don’t intuitively follow that obvious line of logic.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#157

Post by wiseowise »

elf25 wrote: post #59
coliveira wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, House was the inspiration for a whole generation of drug addicts by providing a character that they could empathize with. The same way that Wall Street created a whole generation that wanted to become crooked stock operators.

My what a boring media landscape it would be if all characters were goodie little “Mary Poppins” types. Just because a minority wrongly take inspiration from an ill behaved character is no reason to temper a fictional character actions. Did Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid lead to an increase in bank and train robberies?

> Did Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid lead to an increase in bank and train robberies?

Doing petty crime and being misogynistic piece of shit is easier than robbing a bank.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#158

Post by gwbas1c »

JohnFen wrote: post #123
gwbas1c wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, Neal Stephenson's later writings are awesome. I don't think he's gotten sloppier at all.

I don't know if he's gotten sloppier or just more verbose, but do find his later writings to be largely plodding and much less interesting than his earlier works. He pretty much lost me with The Baroque Cycle. Those books were a chore. But I think that has to do with the clear change in his writing style, which has diverged from my personal tastes. So it's not a judgement call on his writing either way -- we've just…

> He pretty much lost me with The Baroque Cycle. Those books were a chore.

I wouldn't call those "later writings," he's written quite a few excellent (and better) books since. Anathem, Seveneves, and Fall; or, Dodge in Hell were excellent. Termination Shock was a quick read.

I've since gone back and re-read Cryptonomicon. I don't know know if I'll redo the whole Baroque cycle, (Because it was so long,) but I do have fond memories. I suspect it's the kind of book that's better the 2nd time through.

BTW, Fall; or, Dodge in Hell ends the Baroque Cycle. Enoch Root is in that book and we figure out what he really is.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#159

Post by pests »

rand846633 wrote: post #77
Hasu wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kubrick’s version was a failure because he missed the most important part and the last few pages of the book. The American version of the book doesn't have the final chapter, and was the basis for Kubrick's film. He was aware of the final chapter but never considered using it, as he didn't agree with Burgess and thought it didn't make sense (this was also the opinion of the American editor who had the final chapter…

Super interesting detail and kind wild and questionable that an authors work would be substantially changed by an editor.

There's a quote from the author elsewhere in this thread stating he was broke and needed money and if that meant chopping off a chapter then so be it.

Re: 'I should not have written 'A Clockwork Orange''

#160

Post by youngNed »

westmeal wrote: post #115
haspok wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or take Tarkovsky: both Stalker and Solaris are based on books, but only loosely. Stalker, for example, was a short sci-fi / horror story, if I remember correctly, and in the movie this is just a remote backstory, setting the scene to more serious topics and mysticism.

I haven't seen Solaris but Stalker really really sucked.

I knew if I stuck around the Internet long enough I would find someone who agreed with me. Dear lord, Stalker is an awful film.
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