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CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

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Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#151
Return to office is part of the austerity doctrine. There is a concerted effort to rein in the newfound powers of workers, and bring back more traditional order to the worker / employer relationship.

Plenty of CEOs and their ilk have been on the record talking about the need to rebalance the equation between workers and workplaces, pointing to the collapse in commercial real estate as one of the consequences of this imbalance. Remote work is just one facet of the overall idea that people need to be made hungry again and that the worker/workplace balance needs to move back towards the workplace and the needs of companies.

As Clara Mattei said in an interview with Marketplace recently:

> The idea here is that austerity is all about getting us all to have to depend more on having money in our pocket in order to make a living. Together with the precariousness that an economic downturn brings about has the political effect of silencing demands for better conditions or even demands for more radical social changes towards a society that is based on different principles, and not on the exploitation of wage work.

https://www.marketplace.org/2023/02/08/does-austerity-have-a...

The protests against the squeeze in the food system in the EU and France is particularly enlightening, as central authorities seek to extract the “inflation” from the growers of food rather than the middle-men and retailers where study after study shows its where the majority of “excess profits” have occurred.

https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20240130-french-agricultu...

There’s a tendency to be focused on bad management and bad managers, but the truth is that there’s a much larger movement here to rein in the power of workers.

If this the theory proves correct, soon we will experience a push in editorial narrative towards national debts, crisis and money issues and the need for America and other countries in the west to live within their means, and how each of us needs to do our part.

We are already experiencing broad labor problems.

You can track, to some degree, the anti-austerity and anti-budget protests happening globally here:

https://carnegieendowment.org/publications/interactive/prote...

They do not get much media coverage.

Just bear in mind that things are not quite so simple as “bad managers.”

I will say there are plenty of them and finding people who really get how to manage a remote teams is extremely challenging. Most of the people who talk about managing remote teams don’t actually know how to do it effectively, and I can tell you as someone who’s been managing remote teams for 20 years it was kind of funny to watch everyone become an “expert” because managing large remote teams effectively is a different skill set than managing people in office environments.

So yes, for sure the RTO mandates are definitely correlated with poor firm performance and a desire to blame workers for poor results: the study is right. But I’d also submit that it’s part of a larger trend to try to pin the economic consequences of irresponsible spending on the working classes (please note, if you make your money from a salary or RSUs and a salary you are effectively a member of the working class, not the same as socioeconomic classes).

Any time I post on austerity it gets downvoted, but that’s fine. But I think it’s important to at least be discussing austerity principles and how they are being used in these important social changes, as they are profoundly powerful in understanding what’s happening. Do downvote if you think this has no value, but please leave a comment as to why. This is a place for intelligent discussion, and I hope it won’t become another Reddit-esque echo chamber as it does seem to be headed that direction at times. I deeply value the HN community and what I have learned from other smarter people here.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#152

Is it possible for someone to 1. Be a really good 'in person' manager (able to foster a good in-office culture, motivate and coach people effectively in real time). 2. Be a really bad 'remote' manager. Not saying RTO mandates are a good idea, but to say it's masking poor management as a black and white statement lacks nuance.

If you're a poor manager of your organization's current style of work, is that still poor management, even if you're a good manager in a different setting?

To use a sports metaphor, if I'm a really good manager of a team in the German Bundesliga, but then I switch to manage a team in the English Premier League and I'm terrible at that, then that's still bad management, even if I'm not a "bad manager" in some universal sense. And it would be weird for the organization to try to fix that problem by moving the team I'm managing to Germany. They would expect me to figure out how to be a good manager in the new setting, or they would find someone to replace me.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#153
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The sad reality is that it’s not (at least for knowledge workers)… it kills productivity and the output is always lower quality. Is this actually a fact that you can prove, or simply a belief?

[flagged]

Why dont I steal when I have the opportunity? Dunno maybe because I'm a decent human being?

Why do you feel like you would steal from the company if given the opportunity?

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#154

I think it is retaliation. Employees started pushing for WFH, raises, better work/life balance. Employers (especially bad ones) like to have control and so this is to get employees back in line.

I don’t know. Sounds good, but is there any data to back that up? “It’s all about power” or control sounds like such a cliche at this point.

Its cliche because its true. In a certain sense its not all that surprising: execs hang oit with other execs. They go to the same sports games, vacation at the same spots, attend conferences etc.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#155

I left Amazon a month ago (voluntarily) for a fully remote role because they asked me to move to Seattle/Arlington. When I joined them, I was already in a different state because of my wife's work. So I told them, I cannot join if they don't give me remote exception; it took them ~4-5 weeks to get the sign off for remote exception from the VP. I took the job and 9 months in, Jassy decided to force everyone back to th…

Even if they analysed slack+chime log activity. I guess they’ll explain it away with something like “working from office significantly reduces the need for online chatter”.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of a TC cut did you have to take between Amazon and your current employer?

Almost any value is worth it. On your death bed you will never say I'm glad I spent those years of my life commuting for Amazon instead of everything else I could have been doing.

It’s not so clear cut. If I stay at my RTO job for a few more years, I can probably retire at 35-40, versus taking a pay cut and retiring sometime in my late 50s. I’d say that’s worth the commute.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much of a TC cut did you have to take between Amazon and your current employer?

Almost any value is worth it. On your death bed you will never say I'm glad I spent those years of my life commuting for Amazon instead of everything else I could have been doing.

[deleted]

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#158
post #129

Apple has poor Managment?

From some stories, depending on the area, the management at Apple reached "horrible shitshow" levels that abused a lot of other reasons people stayed in the job.

OTOH they infamously were very anti-WFH from start, so on this I'd say they didn't change

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#159

I left Amazon a month ago (voluntarily) for a fully remote role because they asked me to move to Seattle/Arlington. When I joined them, I was already in a different state because of my wife's work. So I told them, I cannot join if they don't give me remote exception; it took them ~4-5 weeks to get the sign off for remote exception from the VP. I took the job and 9 months in, Jassy decided to force everyone back to th…

> started working at 9 am and log out at 5pm pronto.

Isn't this 7-7.5 hrs? Are you not required to take at least a 30 minute break within that period? Or does Amazon pay for lunch? I thought 9-5 was a myth/thing of the past.

Re: CEOs Are Using Return to Office Mandates to Mask Poor Management

#160

Fully agree with this post, and further think that a lot of execs have specific issues they feel from this: - They often got into their role because of their IRL presence including:loud/aggressive voices, tall/physical imposing stature, etc. - They like the feudal trappings of a big office with floors full of their reports, with a high end looking office, with assistants who get their coffee, etc. Now that they're wo…

I tend to agree. Remote work done right encourages a data driven culture centered on documentation ( Notion, Slack as the communication hub of the company) vs meetings.
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