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Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

greenpeace.org

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Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#151

Post by defrost »

Invictus0 wrote: post #150
defrost wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The age old question of the ethical heroin dealer. Does not selling to the local school while riding an electric scooter make it alright?

Comparing oil to heroin is beyond stupid. It's an essential good responsible for 30% of the world's energy needs. If oil disappeared from the earth tomorrow, entire nations would grind to a halt and millions would die.

I'm sorry, are you unaware of the medical uses for the opium poppy and the millions that would die | experience great pain without it?

It's not an exact analgy, sure .. but to describe it as "beyond stupid" is certainly less than bright.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#152

Post by dghlsakjg »

brutusborn wrote: post #149
dghlsakjg wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must. That list is a bunch of pilot projects and commitments AFAICT. One of the projects is burning methane from oil production to produce hydrogen to recapture carbon. That’s not really gonna save the world. I couldn’t find much evidence in there that carbon capture is being done at scale or in a way that isn’t using energy in ways that it would be more efficient to just not do it, since it is pulling from a gri…

So your criteria for success is to ‘save the world.’ How about we aim for ‘reduce emissions’ or ‘develop solutions’? Or even better ‘stop opposing people who are trying to help’? All tech starts at small scales. Yours is an absurd rebuttal.

Ok, take out the save the world comment.

Can you point to a promising project from the link you posted? Like I said, it lists a lot of funding, but not a lot of actual carbon sequestration.

Your rebuttal doesn’t actually provide evidence that carbon sequestration is a technology that is on its way to working on the small scale. All of those projects are sequestering carbon by consuming massive amounts of energy from sources that are partially or completely carbon powered.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#153

Post by defrost »

brutusborn wrote: post #132
bertil wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Carbon capture is being successfully used all around the world. [Citation needed]

If I must spoon feed you… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_carbon_capture_and_s...

What is currently the largest carbon dioxide sequestration operation in the world is pretty much a running joke, not the least for being some years past the initial starting date, accounting for a tiny tiny fraction of the CO2 emitted by the larger gas project, and essentially being little more than a distraction from ongoing CO2 from oil and gas operations as usual.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Carbon_Dioxide_Inject...

Chevron are not "trying to help", they're actively engaged in smoke and mirrors.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#154

Post by brutusborn »

defrost wrote: post #153
brutusborn wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I must spoon feed you… https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_carbon_capture_and_s...

What is currently the largest carbon dioxide sequestration operation in the world is pretty much a running joke, not the least for being some years past the initial starting date, accounting for a tiny tiny fraction of the CO2 emitted by the larger gas project, and essentially being little more than a distraction from ongoing CO2 from oil and gas operations as usual. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorgon_Carbon_Diox…

I hate Gorgon too, they tarnished the name of CCS for commercial gain. Their system is throttled for economic reasons though, not technological. Even worse: the government funded it!

If the Australian Government held their feet to the fire they would have sequestered the promised amount. However they didn’t, and Chevron has no incentive to fix it properly.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#155

Post by gettodachoppa »

Invictus0 wrote: post #117
belval wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take, but I feel like Norway gets greenwashed a lot as better than everywhere else, when they are basically a northern Saudi Arabia in terms of exports with over 70% of their exports being oil and gas.

Norway is a beautiful modern liberal democracy, Saudi Arabia is a theocratic desert dictatorship hellhole.

Smug westerners love to say that stuff, and yet people in Saudi Arabia are much happier than Norwegians. The rate of suicide is double in Norway what it is in Saudi Arabia. I guess there's more to a country and people's worth than their willingness to fly LGBT flags?

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#156

Post by brutusborn »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #152
brutusborn wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your criteria for success is to ‘save the world.’ How about we aim for ‘reduce emissions’ or ‘develop solutions’? Or even better ‘stop opposing people who are trying to help’? All tech starts at small scales. Yours is an absurd rebuttal.

Ok, take out the save the world comment. Can you point to a promising project from the link you posted? Like I said, it lists a lot of funding, but not a lot of actual carbon sequestration. Your rebuttal doesn’t actually provide evidence that carbon sequestration is a technology that is on its way to working on the small scale. All of those projects are sequestering carbon by consuming massive amounts of energy from…

It’s early stage tech, they’re all promising in that _they are trying to develop tech to help_. How can I prove a developing tech will scale? How can you prove it won’t? It started at 0 and is now at millions of tonnes scale. If that isn’t good enough progress then I have nothing for you.

Imagine using the same logic in the 80s “solar panels produce hardly any power and use lots of fossil fuels for production, why are we wasting resources developing them?”

Or the internet in the 90s “it will have less impact than the fax machine.”

It’s just emotional nonsense. We should support the people working on solutions, not complain from the sidelines.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#157

Post by petre »

burkaman wrote: post #120
petre wrote: post #113

I usually discover after years that these climate action movements were actually sponsored by Russia. It has already happened with the fracking. But then it's too late because they've already produced effects.

Can you link to some times this has happened in the past? I searched and found some opinion pieces and quotes, but no evidence yet.

Here you go, an ten years old article from the Guardian, a leftie news outlet that always supports climate action campaigns.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-s...

I remember the fracking hysteria quite well when it happened in Eastern Europe because I too fell for it, to then find out it was a Russian psyop.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/20/russias-quiet-war-again...

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#158

Post by madsbuch »

stubish wrote: post #139
madsbuch wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you make a scientific argument that carbon capture and geo engineering will not work at scale. if not, then you are just littering with words.

It takes orders of magnitude more power to capture the carbon from the atmosphere than was gained putting it there in the first place. It requires sucking in and processing inconceivable quantities of air requiring inconceivable amounts of land for the facilities, because the carbon we need to capture has been released and distributed into the earths atmosphere. The engineering required to scale out any existing or e…

Whether you can conceive the amounts of air and energy it requires is not really scientific arguments.

A scientific argument transcends personal beliefs.

You might believe that such a feat is inconceivable, but lets agree not to pollute the language any more by using the word "scientific" when we mean "believe".

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#159

Post by madsbuch »

hnbad wrote: post #97
madsbuch wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

can you make a scientific argument that carbon capture and geo engineering will not work at scale. if not, then you are just littering with words.

Carbon capture technologies produce more carbon emissions than they can capture if you account for the resource use for production and construction. Even when they do slightly better than breaking even the margin is so low that scaling it up is not a meaningful contribution relative to the amount of emissions we would need to counteract. This is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. Geo engineering to the deg…

> Carbon capture technologies produce more carbon emissions than they can capture

No, this statement only work under a certain set of assumptions (eg. source of energy).

As I wrote to the sibling comment: Let's not mix up beliefs and scientific reasoning.

Re: Norwegian youth win climate court case against the Norwegian State

#160

Post by hutzlibu »

hcurtiss wrote: post #107
hutzlibu wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"China is the world's leader in electricity production from renewable energy sources, with over triple the generation of the second-ranking country, the United States. China's renewable energy sector is growing faster than its fossil fuels and nuclear power capacity" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_China There are many things you can say about china, but they do take climate change serious (maybe…

How can you say that when they are simultaneously radically increasing coal power generation, as highlighted in the article? It appears to me they have an "all of the above" strategy driven by their desire for prosperity.

Because their renewable sector is growing faster than everything else? And has 3x the size of the vastly more rich USA?

I did not say they are 100% green. They have real constraints, mainly yes, they need economic growth first - so they also build coal (only some countries do not build coal plants anymore).

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