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Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

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Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#151

Post by cyberax »

NetOpWibby wrote: post #121
OsrsNeedsf2P wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main argument that you buy Apple because you can trust the payment system doesn't really go against the anticompetitive argument Epic is making. Re Android: * Android has the same 30% fee * Android controls the Play Store IAPs (dark patterns) almost identically to Apple - Mobile dev of 3 years

Personally, Android's ecosystem has never been compelling because of Google. Even barring their unrelenting focus on gobbling more of your data, they can't even keep their services on. Their graveyard is massive. How many times has their default messages app changed? It's nuts. Being an Android developer seems like an exercise in frustration. I'm sure it happens on iOS to some degree but I've seen people online brag…

> Personally, Android's ecosystem has never been compelling because of Google. Even barring their unrelenting focus on gobbling more of your data, they can't even keep their services on. Their graveyard is massive.

Who cares? If you're developing for Android, you don't need to care about Google killing off Stadia.

> How many times has their default messages app changed? It's nuts. Being an Android developer seems like an exercise in frustration.

Again, who cares? I'm using the same messaging apps that I was using 10 years ago.

And it's not like Apple is any better. It has standardized on iMessage, but you can't do anything with it as a developer. It might as well not exist for you.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#152

Post by CuriouslyC »

edgyquant wrote: post #134
CuriouslyC wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All businesses employ manipulative practices, marketing and sales are built on them. An indictment of Epic on these grounds is an indictment of modern capitalism. It's annoying, base and tragic but not ultimately anywhere near the mafia-level thuggery to which Apple has engaged.

How does the tea shop down the road from me manipulate anyone? I think maybe it’s the case that most large businesses do so because their bureaucracy comes to demand it for ever greater gains. But it is not the case that all businesses do so.

If they do sales and marketing, they do. Premium tea shops will try to upsell customers all sorts of paraphernalia to prepare tea "just so" and rare expensive teas that taste nearly indistinguishable from less expensive varieties (particularly to randos with sub-sommelier level palates).

If it's just a chill little tea shop that doesn't advertise or go crazy on social media, focuses more on good tea and a comfortable space, keeps things affordable without trying to upsell or be pretentious, then lucky you. Those sorts of lifestyle businesses are very rare these days, they're being outcompeted by predatory hyper-efficient modern businesses to the detriment of all.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#153

Post by s1artibartfast »

lykahb wrote: post #108

Apple collects the rent from the apps that exist withn their walled garden. Epic employs behavioural specialists tasked in making their games addictive and coerce user into spending with micro-transactions. I do not want to take a side in this fight.

In general, I dont think it is productive to view most issues as fights between actors, or based on opinions about their character.

Opinions should be based on principles that could be applied those you like and dont like.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#154

Post by cyberax »

threeseed wrote: post #31
ado__dev wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the issue is how high the fee is, the issue is Apple forcing developers to use their payments platform. Apple is within its right to charge whatever they want. Unreal Engine is free to charge whatever fee they want. But you're not forced to use UE. You are forced to use Apple IAP system, or their alternative now, is to allow you to use your own system, but still pay them a ridiculous fee, for what exact…

As a developer I am not forced to write iOS apps. Just like I am not forced to use Unreal Engine. Apple charges 30% if you do choose. Epic charges 5%. Apple argues that what you're paying for includes SDKs. Epic does too.

> As a developer I am not forced to write iOS apps.

Yes, you are. If you're writing a mobile app, you HAVE to support iOS or go bankrupt.

There are no other options.

Welcome to the land of monopolies.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#155

Post by heavyset_go »

lykahb wrote: post #108

Apple collects the rent from the apps that exist withn their walled garden. Epic employs behavioural specialists tasked in making their games addictive and coerce user into spending with micro-transactions. I do not want to take a side in this fight.

You can be against both, it's not either/or.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#156

Post by johnnyanmac »

lykahb wrote: post #108

Apple collects the rent from the apps that exist withn their walled garden. Epic employs behavioural specialists tasked in making their games addictive and coerce user into spending with micro-transactions. I do not want to take a side in this fight.

I'll take the gaming addiction. Epic wasn't the first to do this (remember way back when we lauded "Nintendo hard" which was simply based on making you eat quarters in the 70's/80's arcade? Yeah...), nor will this be the last kind of game monetization we see. People were hard on lootboxes and the (western) industry already shifted to Battle passes before any serious US legislation started.

Meanwhile the idea of an OS and how open it should be will probably be a battle for decades to come, for old, new, and yet to be made companies. May as well nip it in the bud now.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#157

Post by etchalon »

NoPedantsThanks wrote: post #56
etchalon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. If you want to include a link to an website for payment of digital goods, you have to request an entitlement from Apple. 2. As part of that entitlement, you agree to pay Apple a 27% commission on any purchases made when users click those links, for up to 7 days after the link is clicked. 3. You agree to send Apple monthly sales reports. 4. You agreed to give Apple a right to audit your books at anytime. That's the…

"you agree to pay Apple a 27% commission on any purchases made when users click those links, for up to 7 days after the link is clicked." So if the publisher says, "Click here for a renewal reminder and a 10% discount" and then sends a renewal E-mail on the 8th day, they're in the clear.

RAW, yes.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#158

Post by etchalon »

arrosenberg wrote: post #59
etchalon wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. If you want to include a link to an website for payment of digital goods, you have to request an entitlement from Apple. 2. As part of that entitlement, you agree to pay Apple a 27% commission on any purchases made when users click those links, for up to 7 days after the link is clicked. 3. You agree to send Apple monthly sales reports. 4. You agreed to give Apple a right to audit your books at anytime. That's the…

> Developers are in arms because they don't believe Apple deserves any money for distributing their app on their App Store. Rephrased - Developers are up in arms because the cost of distribution on iOS is artificially high. It's artificially high because the cost is not subject to market forces. It's not subject to market forces because Apple has a vertical monopoly on hardware and software distribution. Vertical int…

Vertical integration is not, in any way, illegal.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#159

Post by darylteo »

ado__dev wrote: post #7

Honestly if forcing everything through Apple's walled garden wasn't anti-competitive enough, this move certainly makes it so. What's next - pay 30% Apple tax for purchases made through Safari? I'm deeply embedded in the Apple ecosystem. From phone, to computer, to home automation stuff. I have no desire to use a secondary app store. But I want that option to be be available. And there is no good reason for Apple to b…

They are following the SC ruling which has explicitly given them the right to do so.

- anti competitive to force users to use their *Payment Processing* platform.

- not anti-competitive to charge 30% for purchases made from the app

The justification is that you're getting access to Apple's network of customers as "leads" and by referring them to you for purchases, Apple is justified a 27% commission.

Similar, other major digital market players such as MS, Google, Nintendo, Sony, Valve all charges 30% as a platform commission fee.

The end result is what you see now. Payment flows originating from the App, Apple is entitled to 27% (-3% which was judged to be an appropriate transaction fee for the Payment Processing).

Apple will not charge you 30% for any purchases made organically through Safari. This was not in the ruling and this remains functionally as it is now.

You can debate about the 30% being too high, especially on top of an annual fee. But claiming that all Safari purchases will incur 30% is a strawman.

Re: Apple's bad faith 27% tax on web purchases

#160

Post by danbruc »

cesarvarela wrote: post #144
paulddraper wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is 30% reasonable?

Would the iPhone be as successful if it wasn't reasonable?

There are always two limits, what producing something costs and how much people value the thing and are therefore willing to pay for it. The actual prize must be somewhere in that range. A thing is a success because the prize is less than what people are willing to pay but they might still be overpaying if a lack of competition does not drive the prize down towards the costs of production.
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