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Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

nytimes.com

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Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#151

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

Arnt wrote: post #140
engineer_22 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that puts the cart before the horse. Why build a railroad to no-where? Surely the small towns pre-existed the railroad.

The two end stations existed, and enough in between the make the railway feasible. Then the existence of paths to two big cities made some villages grow, and grow, and grow.

the two end stations exist because people were already there, they didn't build that railway across the US before these areas were settled.

What you're arguing is that there are towns that would pop up around these railways after the fact, and while that's true, they would also pop up around water, gold, and other natural resources.

It turns out there's lots of reasons why communities form, but one thing we know for sure is that railways require demand FIRST, not second.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#152

Post by samdunham »

cjrp wrote: post #93
tw04 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not exactly accurate. Pick a car - say a Mustang Mach-e: a standard 15A outlet is going to charge at 4miles/hr. Say you get home a 6pm, never go anywhere, and leave it plugged in overnight - that's 48 miles of range. If you're talking dead of winter in Chicago in negative temps, assume half that. Long story short: a 15A outlet really isn't going to get the job done for charging a car. Also you cannot just char…

Do people need 48 miles (or 24 miles if the charging is slow because of the temperature) of range every day? Genuine question, I don't know what driving in that area is like, i.e. nearest grocery story could be 10 miles?

It's not about "every day." It's about being able to hop in the car and just go at a moment's notice. Regardless of the distance. In an ICE car, that's a given. In an EV, it's murkier. Much murkier.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#153

Post by HDThoreaun »

xyst wrote: post #48
tw04 wrote: post #6

90% of the complaints appear to be from folks who have no ability to charge at home. I would agree with the sentiment that if you have to drive any significant distance daily, and live in an apartment where you can’t charge at home, having an EV is going to be a giant pain and it might be a little too soon to go that route. I’d imagine we’re still several years away from having robust enough charging infrastructure a…

The real blunder in this country is the lack of viable alternative transportation options in a majority of the nation. Visited NYC recently and didn’t need to rent a car. Primarily took the bus, ferry, and rail car/trains. In some cases I just walked from my hotel to the destination. Could have rented one of the e-bikes as well. Transportation costs for just 1 week were less than $100 (a quarter of this was because o…

Id like to see the US focus on walkability too, but the reality is most Americans disagree. Most Americans want to live in a SFH with a big yard in suburbia. Public transit does not really work with those constraints. Public transit is great for the people that want to live in cities, but there are more than enough that dont to make electrifying cars an important goal. NYC is great but its obvious to me that I would not enjoy living there, and Im more city postiive than the vast majority of americans.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#154

Post by Waterluvian »

falcolas wrote: post #134
Waterluvian wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

-50 is a different world compared to -5. But now I’m curious how an EV would handle being an outdoor car in -50 windchill.

Windchill doesn't affect vehicles, since it's based on additional cooling caused by wind-driven evaporation. The base temperature would matter more.

Keg River was -50 without the wind chill. But none of this is the point. “Cold” isn’t a fixed concept. It really matters just how cold a kind of vehicle can get before there’s an issue. And at a certain level of coldness you’ve still got to plug in your ICE.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#155

Post by Loggias »

eli wrote: post #144
PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

quick, someone tell that small rural community of 600 people they need public transportation! When people express opinions like this you immediately know they live in the city and think everyone else does too.

What percentage of Americans live in a community with 600 or fewer people? There are very few policy decisions that will be universally good for everyone. That doesn't automatically make them bad policies.

[dead]

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#156

Post by PH95VuimJjqBqy »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #141
smileysteve wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you look back 70 years and realize that many small towns only existed because they had rail (passenger and goods). (and/or private bus service). Turns out, getting your goods to market before every person had a car was a requirement.

Exactly! People say, "rural communities need cars". And sure, new sprawl does need cars, like whatever shat itself over the Front Range. But a lot of old towns had trains . Or stage coaches. Or, later, busses. You see this all over the Old West, and New England, and the Rust Belt. These little towns grew up before there were cars . You still see this in rural Europe. There will be some little village in the middle of…

> These little towns grew up before there were cars.

they used horses...

I think it's hilarious how people are trying to argue that a single train stop in a town is somehow public transportation for the citizens of that town to get around said town.

It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#157

Post by HDThoreaun »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #38
tw04 wrote: post #6

90% of the complaints appear to be from folks who have no ability to charge at home. I would agree with the sentiment that if you have to drive any significant distance daily, and live in an apartment where you can’t charge at home, having an EV is going to be a giant pain and it might be a little too soon to go that route. I’d imagine we’re still several years away from having robust enough charging infrastructure a…

>90% of the complaints appear to be from folks who have no ability to charge at home. That's a significant demographic of the car owning population, especially here in Europe. Having your own house with a charger is an extreme rarity.

2/3 of americans have a garage. I suspect the percentage of americans who can afford an EV and have a garage is much higher. A SFH really is the epitome of the American dream to many.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#158

Post by Tactician_mark »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #153
xyst wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The real blunder in this country is the lack of viable alternative transportation options in a majority of the nation. Visited NYC recently and didn’t need to rent a car. Primarily took the bus, ferry, and rail car/trains. In some cases I just walked from my hotel to the destination. Could have rented one of the e-bikes as well. Transportation costs for just 1 week were less than $100 (a quarter of this was because o…

Id like to see the US focus on walkability too, but the reality is most Americans disagree. Most Americans want to live in a SFH with a big yard in suburbia. Public transit does not really work with those constraints. Public transit is great for the people that want to live in cities, but there are more than enough that dont to make electrifying cars an important goal. NYC is great but its obvious to me that I would…

The question here is how many people don't have a garage but still want a car. The rural and suburban folks are out - plenty of room for garages and charging. So any discussion of public charging infrastructure is focused on places where public transit would be a better investment.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#159

Post by bryanlarsen »

PH95VuimJjqBqy wrote: post #149
bryanlarsen wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, farmers don't live in rural communities. They live on farms. And 90% of them are over the age of 50. Unless it's a Hutterite colony, in which case your point is entirely moot because they have 0 private transport.

now you're getting it. they drive into town because these areas don't have the density that cities do and the towns themselves aren't large enough to justify public transportation, especially considering that even the non-farmers typically will live many miles from where they purchase their groceries, etc.

My home town has public transport, called the Handi-Van.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redvers,_Saskatchewan

Population 1,000.

Re: Electric Car Owners Confront a Harsh Foe: Cold Weather

#160

Post by itishappy »

falcolas wrote: post #131
itishappy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> did you have an accurate gauge of exactly how far you could travel? My ICE almost stranded me during the recent freeze. Conditions affect fuel economy for all vehicles. > Did you have reliable, strong heat in the cabin? This feels like an imagined problem. EVs heat their cabin more efficiently than ICEs. If you end up off the road during a storm (been there) an EV will last longer for the same fill level. They also…

> EVs heat their cabin more efficiently than ICEs. Given that ICEs take advantage of waste heat - which they will have in abundance as long as the engine is running - I disagree. Especially since many EVs still use resistive heating (the F150 Lightning and some Tesla models, for example). And even vehicles with heat pumps will have to use backup resistive heating on really cold days, since they have a lower limit whe…

> which they will have in abundance as long as the engine is running

Right, as long as the engine is running (and warm). It's still inefficient, however, as a significant portion of the heat still leaves with the exhaust. An EV can add a resistor inside the cabin for 100% conversion efficiency, and can power it for longer than a tank of gas will allow an ICE to idle.

Both systems have advantages and disadvantages. "Strong, reliable heat" is not a clear differentiator.

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