We need technology that is less immersive, not more • Hacker News Board

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#151

Post by JohnFen » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 9:29 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

> Entertainment has value.

It absolutely does! But I would argue that "nicer looking graphics" is not required for something to be entertaining.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#152

Post by dwaltrip » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 9:42 PM UTC

wharvle wrote: post #99

massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

Entertainment has gotten really weird now that we have (multiple forms of) recording, plus quick on-demand transmission to practically anywhere. Basically all "need" I have of new recorded (to include video games—on-demand and not requiring the attention or effort of anyone but myself) entertainment is social. Any "need" for new entertainment exists because new entertainment is being created . If new entertainment st…

> If new entertainment stopped being created entirely, my quality of life wouldn't actually drop at all, because there's an astounding quantity & variety of it already, far more than I can engage with in a lifetime…

You don’t think there will be better entertainment in a decade or two? That’s what it sounds like you are saying.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#153

Post by blocko » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 9:58 PM UTC

foobarbecue wrote: post #49

haswell wrote: post #15

While sitting with my iPad typing the other morning, something about the experience struck me in a way that it never had before. I've been typing since the early 90s, and can type around 120WPM without looking or thinking about it, and it hit me that in a very real sense, the iPad (and other computing devices) are already an extension of me. I've invested the time to integrate this hardware into my brain via the keyb…

When my computer glitches, e.g. if a key stops working on my keyboard or the mouse doesn't respond as expected, I sometimes experience a physical sense of of discomfort or disorientation that's not unlike dizzyness or the feeling of missing a step on stairs. I think it's because, as you describe in terms of immersion, my brain has extended its concept of my body through my typing fingers to the computer screen, build…

I'll get this occasionally when I've scrolled to the end of an article without realizing, attempt to scroll further a few seconds later, and then have my eyes/vision caught off guard by the absence of movement. Missing a stairstep was a good example--there's a similar moment of "frozen time" in both cases

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#154

Post by skydhash » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 10:11 PM UTC

photonthug wrote: post #93

whatwhaaaaat wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t buy this for even a minute. If my starter solenoid goes out on my old time Jeep I get the same feeling. (It’s happened a few times now). Does this mean the Jeep is now part of my body? Of course not. It’s called being annoyed or caught off guard by external stimuli. I think there is a large portion of people on this website who have not spent a day in years without their devices. That doesn’t mean their devic…

Ever go rock-crawling for several hours off-road with that jeep? If the stakes are high because you're far from a paved road, 4x4 is also a very immersive experience. After a while the tires become like toes, and finding a good line with the vehicle starts to feel like stepping carefully around broken glass. You cringe almost in anticipation of personal pain when you take a bad line. There's surely some neurological…

Even with playing a racing simulation, where it's a constant challenge to control the car, while the controller or the wheel become quickly abstracted away, the car itself become something your conscious inhabits. You react to stimuli (sound, visual, and vibration), not from your point of view, but from the car.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#155

Post by edgyquant » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 10:13 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

Using lockdowns as a reason why we need entertainment seems so strange. We should instead not be locked down and focus our attention on building tech to prevent that. Not arguing against entertainment mind you, just seems strange to me.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#156

Post by skydhash » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 10:29 PM UTC

robot_no_421 wrote: post #72

hopa wrote: post #66

I feel like you only see articles like this written by game developers. Something about making video games for a living makes you question the value of what you’re creating.

The longer I remain a software engineer the more I hate relying on computers. Maybe the people closest to the technology are the ones to first realize how superficial and downright damaging these innovations actually are.

Computers are nice. The issue lies with the kind of software that are being developed. I have a Kobo device that I put koreader on and it's miles better than the default one because it's actually let you read books how you want to read them. Most of the apps I have focus on being the tools for the use cases I have them for (which is why they are still installed) instead on trying to get in my way every now and then. I love nice visuals and other UX niceties, but I like usefulness more than anything. Some days, I'm really close getting back to my Arch installation. I'd prefer the glitches and do patches instead of suffering another enshitification.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#157

Post by bongodongobob » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 10:32 PM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #155

massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

Using lockdowns as a reason why we need entertainment seems so strange. We should instead not be locked down and focus our attention on building tech to prevent that. Not arguing against entertainment mind you, just seems strange to me.

You're missing the point. The lockdown made him realize that he was taking the importance of entertainment for granted.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#158

Post by aisuujudjdn » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 10:37 PM UTC

massysett wrote: post #47

"I hope you’ll agree that humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list." I used to sneer at the social value of entertainment. Then covid lockdowns hit. I spent a lot of time playing Factorio. When professional sports resumed playing (in empty stadiums, with fake crowd noise on the broadcasts) I was happy to sit on the couch after work and wat…

With all due respect, I think you took the exact opposite lesson from the pandemic that you probably should have and that your story implies.

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#159

Post by alpaca128 » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 10:39 PM UTC

> There are new opportunities in things like e-Ink or transparent screens or IoT that can help people re-focus on the real world around them yet still reap the benefits of technology.

This assumption that only games with nice graphics are immersive enough to somehow be a problem is just wrong. Before I had gaming hardware I wasted the exact same amount of time by re-reading books and comics, and it was quite immersive. AAA graphics are not the problem.

> humanity has a variety of important engineering problems to solve, and nicer-looking graphics is quite low on that list.

That sounds an awful lot like the good old "why do we build space rockets when people are starving".

Re: We need technology that is less immersive, not more

#160

Post by LectronPusher » Fri, Jan 12, 2024, 10:42 PM UTC

ElevenLathe wrote: post #42

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #18

I have a different take than the author. I don't have an issue at all with directed activities being deeply immersive - games most specifically. That is, I like the idea of putting on a headset for a half hour and playing a game, then doing something else. What I think is much more destructive is when "immersion" just looks like "constant distraction", i.e. the idea that we'll wear these immersive devices all the tim…

There are a few (TNG and Voyager for sure, maybe DS9 too) Star Trek stories that deal a bit with holodeck addiction ("holo-addiction"), and I think something at that level of immersion would absolutely cause lots of people to completely withdraw from society, especially if (real world) society is bleak (Ready Player One deals with this aspect of it). I already know 30-something childless adults who spend effectively…

This is a major plot point of the book A Beautifully Foolish Endeavor, sequel to An Absolutely Remarkable Thing. The main antagonist uses high quality VR to trick the brain into full reality from someone else's perspective. The effect on society is grim, and when society is being actively graded by aliens on its worth, this is a big problem.

Highly recommend both books.