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Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

cointelegraph.com

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Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the sentiment, please remember that actually buying BTC directly and doing self-custody is still an option.

The mob always wins in the end, but I never understood why many on HN have been so cynical about Bitcoin. At least Satoshi tried, whoever they were. They gave a gift to the world, but it sadly got co-opted and taken over first by small-time grifters and now by the big boys at Wall Street. In hindsight it was probably bound to happen, because money buys influence and a casual decentralized group of coders can never wi…

>... but I never understood what many on HN have been so cynical about Bitcoin.

Eh, I think you actually might! Hell, you said it yourself - the mob always wins in the end. It doesn't matter what Satoshi made, the mob took it and made it into something else. It's what Bitcoin turned into that HN is collectively cynical about.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#152
post #30

In the hypothetical case that a Bitcoin ETF gets hacked and its wallet(s) emptied, what happens? Is it any different from, say, a gold ETF having its physical gold stolen?

I will note that the ETFs are using Coinbase, Gemini, and Fidelity for custody. These companies have been providing Bitcoin custody for years without being hacked AFAIK.

Most notably, almost all of them seem to be using Coinbase. This makes them a probably unprecedented target for attacks of all kinds...

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#153

The only thing I am concerned about is "paper bitcoin" and rehypothecation. Is there anything published about how ETF entities might prove they have custody of the amount of bitcoin they claim (in other words, proof of reserves)?

You sign a message with your private key. This has been solved since day 1 of bitcoin's existence.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#154
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do it every week. It's free (Zelle), or it's incredibly cheap. It has predictable cost and timeframe, too, unlike Bitcoin, with no customer service and no way to remediate errors and fraud! So, even if I pay to the banks, it covers people and insurance - unlike with Bitcoin, which just burns fossil fuels so that Chinese miners can get richer and richer stealing subsidized electricity!

That's like Robinhood users telling me they pay zero trading fees. Then how does RobbingHood make money? Think about it, running an exchange has costs. I really don't understand how people can be so easily tricked by "free" offers that are actually more expensive when you do the math. PFOF (i.e. legal theft), unfavorable spread, etc... They get their money one way or another. It can technically make sense when you're…

> That's like Robinhood users telling me they pay zero trading fees. Then how does RobbingHood make money?

I was reading a book about that recently, it boils down to: "You're not [just] the customer, you're [also] the product."

Key term: Payment For Order Flow (PFOF) [0], with the book-paragraphs I was thinking of down below:

____________

> Retail investors have one hugely attractive property when considered by a professional – they’re dumb money. Not only are they unlikely to have private information, a lot of the time they haven’t taken care to consider all the public information. When the party on the other side of the trade is a small investor (or a lot of orders from small investors all over the country, ‘bundled’ by a retail stockbroker), you can be reasonably sure that you’re not taking too big a risk that the person selling stock to you knows something about it that you don’t.

> This makes retail orders very valuable to the market. One of the reasons why stock brokerage commissions are so cheap these days is that retail brokers have actually realised how valuable they are. They charge a quite substantial fee to players like the high-frequency traders for the privilege of dealing against their order flow, and they rebate some of this fee to their customers. But the retail orders would eventually dry up if the customers lost too much or felt that they weren’t being given a fair chance. And without a steady flow of ‘dumb money’ lubricating the wheels, the professionals would find it a lot harder to trade, as they’d always suspect each other’s motives for buying or selling.

-- Lying For Money by Dan Davies

[0] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/paymentoforderflow.asp

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#155
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this actually is a critical point, and I'm surprised at what the outcome is. Essentially, it seems to me that these ETFs are saying they will abandon any rights to forked coins. That seems insane to me, though, so perhaps I'm misunderstanding? I mean, if there is a hard fork, some percentage of total value will go with one chain and some percentage to the other - that's basically exactly what happened with the B…

Here's a theory: If they promise to capture value of forks then anyone can fork Bitcoin (it's pretty easy to do) and force the custody providers to do a bunch of work to support that fork. By preemptively disclaiming all forks, they also reduce the motivation to fork. (Stablecoins have the same effect on Ethereum.) Here's a list of 45(!) Bitcoin forks and 11 airdrops that have happened so far: https://forkdrop.io/how…

It's hard to make that promise too, what happens when the fork requires that you expose 200 bits of your private key to make a transaction?

What happens when the fork snapshotted the chain at some arbitrary point in the past such that it's not possible to match it up with ownership of the ETF?

There have been 'forks' of altcoins made where the 'official' software was expressly backdoored. They even lead to some fringe exchanges being robbed.

There was a brief flurry of forks when exchanges felt compelled to list them-- they were a way for altcoin creators to avoid the huge listing bribes demanded by exchanges (which also has made it so that only premined altcoins are viable to create anymore)... but after exchanges decided to stop listing them (and esp Archer v Coinbase established that exchanges could just keep the fork coins, if that was their policy) most of the fork creation stopped.

(somewhat to my saddness: diligently dumping fork coins made me a lot of money...)

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with the sentiment, please remember that actually buying BTC directly and doing self-custody is still an option.

But then I have to pay taxes on it. Time to full send my retirement accounts into these ETFs so I can retire early. /s Actually though I might consider allocating a tiny percentage (1-3%) to these. Seems like fairly low risk with enough upside, but who knows.

What do you mean? self-custodying BTC is still unrealized gains until you sell, so no tax either.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much more hassle though. Nobody's going to bother with that now - what's the point?

But what’s the point of Bitcoin then? They might as well put anything in these ETFs and it’d be the same thing then: the flat rocks in my garden are limited in number and very scarce, wanna put some in an etf?

Bitcoin's value lies in its potential as a secure means of payment for microtransactions and its integration with advanced technologies like the Lightning Network. Its worth is tied to its perceived future utility in various domains, particularly in facilitating transactions over APIs. The recent ETF news contributes to its liquidity and stability, essential for its role in digital transactions. As the technology and applications around Bitcoin continue to evolve, its true value might become more apparent, potentially transforming the landscape of digital commerce and AI interactions.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and what would happen during a fork? Now, that is a very interesting question. If said ETF did their homework properly, their handling of a fork should be described in detail in their prospectus. Not that I would ever buy a BTC ETF since it precisely negates what I believe Bitcoin to be useful for, but if I had to, I'd pick the one that would convert the forked coins back to BTC immediately after the fork. If enoug…

Not that I would ever buy a BTC ETF since it precisely negates what I believe Bitcoin to be useful for Yeah I know what you mean, although one competitive advantage of the fund is it can be invested in a tax-free savings accounts not subject to capital gains tax (I haven't seen a practical way to do the same with the raw commodity).

Sure, being able to rebalance without incurring a tax bill is nice, as is not having to worry about procuring the right type of tax forms since your brokerage does most of the work for you.

But is there actually a difference for pure buy-and-hold investors in most jurisdictions?

I know of at least one jurisdiction where an ETF is actually disadvantaged against physically holding cryptocurrency.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#159

The only thing I am concerned about is "paper bitcoin" and rehypothecation. Is there anything published about how ETF entities might prove they have custody of the amount of bitcoin they claim (in other words, proof of reserves)?

This should actually be quicker and easier to prove than something like gold ETFs (e.g. SPDR) or other commodity ETFs.

The custody provider (e.g. Coinbase is the custody provider for most of these ETFs) should be able to simply show wallet addresses for all the Bitcoin they hold.

Re: Spot Bitcoin ETF receives official approval from the SEC

#160

Irony of the millenium! Wasn't Bitcoin supposed to "free" us from the banks, "speculative" finanacial institutions and centralised control? Guess human greed trumps everything!

Bitcoin was supposed to be available to anyone. By definition, that also includes banks and speculators.
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