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Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

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Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#151

Post by [deleted] »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #113
TillE wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technical ability and knowledge just doesn't correlate with critical thinking at all. At worst, it makes you more likely to fall into that common trap of believing you're "smart" and therefore know everything about everything.

I would say it does correlate with some type of critical thinking, but not the one related to social/cultural/philosophical issues. What I say might seem strange at first, because critical thinking is presented as some kind of super-universal skill that you can freely apply to anything but in fact it's not. Kinda like one would think that a good singer would automatically make a good dancer because of being able to f…

[deleted]

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#152

Post by rizzom5000 »

pi-e-sigma wrote: post #113
TillE wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Technical ability and knowledge just doesn't correlate with critical thinking at all. At worst, it makes you more likely to fall into that common trap of believing you're "smart" and therefore know everything about everything.

I would say it does correlate with some type of critical thinking, but not the one related to social/cultural/philosophical issues. What I say might seem strange at first, because critical thinking is presented as some kind of super-universal skill that you can freely apply to anything but in fact it's not. Kinda like one would think that a good singer would automatically make a good dancer because of being able to f…

The idea that someone who is a good singer would also be a good dancer is a non-starter for someone applying critical thinking, in my opinion.

Do you have any other examples where you think critical thinking abilities cannot be universally applied?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#153

Post by Ferret7446 »

ceejayoz wrote: post #83

These threads always bring out a whole bunch of people who confuse confirmation bias with population-level statistics. If you kicked a heroin habit, good for you! Societally we still can’t use “suck it up you pansies” as a drug rehab strategy just on your say-so.

There's a difference between "sheer willpower" and "wanting to change and putting in effort toward habit breaking strategies". There's quite a lot of knowledge about habit forming and breaking, and one of the key strategies is to set up measures so that you don't have to rely on willpower during the key moments when you're being tested.

People need to have the "willpower" and commitment to change themselves, that is different from expecting them to not do drugs when they're in withdrawal and holding the drugs in their hands.

This is why there are things like gambling blacklists, where gambling addicts can register themselves so that they can't relapse in a moment of weakness. They need the willpower to register themselves so that they don't have to rely on the willpower to not go into a casino when they pass by.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#154

Post by anon84873628 »

Levitz wrote: post #145
s1artibartfast wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is because it is a terrible message. It isnt an either/or situation, and successful breaking habits does rely on willpower, just not willpower alone . Smart strategy can make things easier , but there is no strategy that makes it easier to stop heroin than do to keep it. It advertises the idea that with the right circumstances, you can make it so that the desirable option is always the easiest option - t…

I beg to differ, and we know this . Want to stop taking heroin? Stop surrounding yourself with people who take heroin. See a medical professional. Get away from wherever you get the heroin. Try to get your life in order so you have other things to look forward to. It's a terrible, terrible idea to just "stop taking heroin". Pray tell, if you see someone who is an heroin addict and they say they are going to stop it a…

The line from the parent is:

>Smart strategy can make things easier, but there is no strategy that makes it easier to stop heroin than do to keep it.

You then say:

>Want to stop taking heroin? Stop surrounding yourself with people who take heroin. See a medical professional. Get away from wherever you get the heroin. Try to get your life in order so you have other things to look forward to.

Those things are all a complex sequence of tasks that requires a huge amount of planning, logistics, task initiation, etc etc. Not to mention money, uncertainty, fear etc. They are literally orders of magnitude more difficult for a person to do than continuing to take heroin.

It'd be like if I told you, "want to stop being hungry for breakfast in the morning? Just go change your whole life instead of eating a bagel."

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#155

Post by rtsil »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #105
ceejayoz wrote: post #83

These threads always bring out a whole bunch of people who confuse confirmation bias with population-level statistics. If you kicked a heroin habit, good for you! Societally we still can’t use “suck it up you pansies” as a drug rehab strategy just on your say-so.

I think that is because it is a terrible message. It isnt an either/or situation, and successful breaking habits does rely on willpower, just not willpower alone . Smart strategy can make things easier , but there is no strategy that makes it easier to stop heroin than do to keep it. It advertises the idea that with the right circumstances, you can make it so that the desirable option is always the easiest option - t…

To break a habit, you have to replace it with a different habit. Willpower is one of the ways to do that, but others are more successful on more people.

The reason why so many people hire a coach for physical activities, diet or even life decisions isn't so much that these are extremely specialized domains that need high expertise; it's that having someone make the decision, i.e. not relying on willpower, is often more effective and easier. It also leads to accountability: you have to show results to someone else, not just to your brain. And for most people, that's also more effective and easier than willpower.

Telling people to get over themselves and take charge is generally a well-meaning, but often misleading call to action. And after a couple of failures, the lesson they'll learn is that they're weak and ineffective and there's nothing that can be done about it, which compounds the problem instead of solving it.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#156

Post by s1artibartfast »

Levitz wrote: post #145
s1artibartfast wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is because it is a terrible message. It isnt an either/or situation, and successful breaking habits does rely on willpower, just not willpower alone . Smart strategy can make things easier , but there is no strategy that makes it easier to stop heroin than do to keep it. It advertises the idea that with the right circumstances, you can make it so that the desirable option is always the easiest option - t…

I beg to differ, and we know this . Want to stop taking heroin? Stop surrounding yourself with people who take heroin. See a medical professional. Get away from wherever you get the heroin. Try to get your life in order so you have other things to look forward to. It's a terrible, terrible idea to just "stop taking heroin". Pray tell, if you see someone who is an heroin addict and they say they are going to stop it a…

did you even read my post?

My point is the inverse. Resisting the urge to do heroin is a necessary part of every solution. Necessary but not sufficient

If your strategy is exert no willpower with respect to your cravings, it doesnt matter how much support you have or how many life changes you make.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#157

Post by yowzadave »

Levitz wrote: post #145
s1artibartfast wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is because it is a terrible message. It isnt an either/or situation, and successful breaking habits does rely on willpower, just not willpower alone . Smart strategy can make things easier , but there is no strategy that makes it easier to stop heroin than do to keep it. It advertises the idea that with the right circumstances, you can make it so that the desirable option is always the easiest option - t…

I beg to differ, and we know this . Want to stop taking heroin? Stop surrounding yourself with people who take heroin. See a medical professional. Get away from wherever you get the heroin. Try to get your life in order so you have other things to look forward to. It's a terrible, terrible idea to just "stop taking heroin". Pray tell, if you see someone who is an heroin addict and they say they are going to stop it a…

I think this is good advice (don't just try to exercise your willpower, change your surroundings), and it holds for making good habits as well. If I want to start doing daily exercise, it's not likely to work if I just wake up at six and try to will myself to do it. Make an appointment to play tennis with somebody the day before--then you're socially obligated to show up. Do it frequently enough, and pretty soon you'll know a bunch of people who also play tennis; they'll start making appointments with you to play. Is this a "habit"? Or is it just a natural outcome of the environment you've surrounded yourself with?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#158

Post by aeonik »

wwtdtgotiatl wrote: post #103
endisneigh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting that a forum filled with a disproportionate amount of techies still fall for such biases

Why would techies be less susceptible to bias compared to the general population? That statement itself seems like it would be a cognitive bias.

Many parts of computer science are literally nothing but pure wrangling of thought with logic. Fighting bias systematically is a major part of the trade.

Computer Science is the worst named discipline. Many times when reading code it's like a window into someone else's mind, or a direct window into your own confused mess of a mind from the past.

Problem is, it's really really complicated, and no matter how good you get, or how much practice you put in, it still feels like we humans are trying to fly by flapping our arms.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#159

Post by armchairhacker »

derbOac wrote: post #87

I was at a research colloquium once and this came up in the context of dieting. The author of that research was making similar statements, although the focus of the research was different. The problem I had with what they were describing was that they basically defined away willpower. That is, it felt like they basically said "once you control for all the downstream effects of willpower, willpower no longer has an ef…

The thing with dieting is that you have to maintain some sort of diet to maintain the weight loss. And that means unless you maintain a diet which requires minimal willpower, so that you're no longer "suffering", you're required to suffer almost every day for the rest of your life.

I think many people are actually good at delaying gratification: suffer unbearably for a few minutes, intensely for a few days, or mildly for a few months. But everyone who suffers long-term eventually burns out, and people who are forced to suffer long-term past burnout (e.g. forced to work intensely to survive, or experiencing chronic unbearable pain) experience so much stress it changes them physically.

Furthermore, food addiction is unique because, unlike drugs, you can't "quit" food entirely. I imagine it becomes easier to avoid smoking or heroin if you haven't done so for years (though maybe I'm wrong on this point), but food is constant, so unless you form "healthy habits" (AKA eat food which both satiates you and maintains your weight) the suffering never goes away. I'm fortunate to not have weight issues myself, but as a long-distance runner, I know hunger, and it's not something you can live your entire life with. I also know that it's not always as easy as "have a cheat day every once in a while", because if you're really lacking nutrients, you'll feel hungry no matter how much you eat, that hunger only goes away after time (and presumably for some people with serious metabolic issues, it never goes away).

The good news with weight-loss is that we've done so much research, we have a lot of tools and techniques so that even people with metabolic issues can be satiated. Not even pills (which are probably only required for a minority which truly have metabolic issues), many people can probably maintain long-term weight loss with diet alone. The key is, these people maintain the weight by sticking to a diet which isn't suffering to them, like one with whole foods (which are known to be more satiating). Even then, you're maintaining constant willpower by not choosing the less-satiating but addictive processed foods, but it's not a willpower which makes you "suffer".

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#160

Post by LiquidSky »

TillE wrote: post #100
endisneigh wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting that a forum filled with a disproportionate amount of techies still fall for such biases

Technical ability and knowledge just doesn't correlate with critical thinking at all. At worst, it makes you more likely to fall into that common trap of believing you're "smart" and therefore know everything about everything.

That applies especially here:

“Preposterous, my vast intellect can easily overcome anything!”

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