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In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

nytimes.com

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Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#151

Post by TacticalCoder »

lopis wrote: post #142
TacticalCoder wrote: post #140

I have amazing memories, as a kid, of going on vacation with my parents, from Belgium to the french riviera... We'd load our car , a Lada (the Lada Riva, an horrible car btw), on the train and then, in the same train, we'd go to the passenger car. The trip was about 1100 km / 685 miles. The train would drive over night and we'd eat and sleep in the train and then arrived near destination next morning, we'd hop into o…

I think because cars became much more reliable, we felt we didn't need these anymore. The reintroduction of that type of service would mean you no longer thad to worry about your electric car's range when going on a road trip. The car could even charge while in the train.

> I think because cars became much more reliable, we felt we didn't need these anymore.

Oh that's a good point. Cars got comfier too: nowadays with AC and they're quieter etc.

> The car could even charge while in the train

Oh that'd be completely amazing!

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#152

Post by GrumpySloth »

mondaymusings wrote: post #110
GrumpySloth wrote: post #26

> Amid concerns about climate change, demand for rail service is strong This attempt at spinning it as people being motivated to use trains out of concern for the climate is hilarious. Almost nobody thinks like that. Trains are just a hell of a lot more convenient than alternative modes of transport for long distance trips.

I have avoided flying and instead used trains for the last 10 years due to climate concerns. I know plenty of people who have made the same change in behaviour and my experience from the public debate in the nordic countries is that such a behaviour shift has grown more common among consumers in general. I found no study on consumer preferences on this topic that covers all of Europe but to get started here are two r…

Your second link also gives an alternative explanation of people being motivated economically, not environmentally. And quote from the first link:

> 91% say they want to replace short-distance flights by fast, low-polluting trains in collaboration with neighbouring countries

See how a train being fast was bundled into the question.

Let’s forget about environment for a moment. Going by plane is a lot less convenient, when you can take a train, due to needing to show up a lot earlier at the airport, going through security and all kinds of overhead. So when trains work, i.e. they’re fast, reliable and affordable, nobody needs environmental concerns to use them.

For me to be convinced that someone is taking a train for environmental reasons, the train would need to be more expensive for them than going by plane. Because otherwise everyone likes to see themselves in a good light and say how much their choices are dictated by ethics, when in reality the wallet is often a more potent motivator than environmental concerns. Just like every employer likes to say that they hire and promote based on merit, but then it turns out that on average taller people get hired and promoted more often. And the employers will still believe that they weren’t influenced by that. Just like travellers will overestimate the influence of environmental concerns on their choice of mode of transport. In both cases it’s because people like to see themselves in good light. And same way most of the people who say they’d prefer to buy products produced in fair worker conditions, won’t actually buy the products whose prices reflect that. Declarations are cheap. Particularly feel-good declarations.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#153

Post by The_Colonel »

throwup238 wrote: post #98
The_Colonel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not build parallel tracks, but with the same gauge? > This can be a lesson on how to run complex systems in general. This sounds like cargo culting. Japan has great train system, it has to be because of separate gauges!

> Why not build parallel tracks, but with the same gauge? Jevon's paradox [1] probably. The most profitable part of the rail system will grow to crowd out and interfere with the rest. By keeping it different gauges, they all operate independent of each other's incentives. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

I don't really see this dynamic working in rail. In Japan, many of the companies operate trains on two gauges.

People read too much into this, it's mostly just historical reasons. Most slow Japanese rail has a quite narrow gauge which is less suitable for high speed trains. The interoperability benefit is limited since you typically won't want to operate both Shinkanzens and local trains on the same rail.

Having different gauges provides no real benefit. It's just that unifying gauges provides too little benefit to justify the massive investment required. I expect this to be the same for most other countries. (and for similar problems like different railway electrification systems within/across countries)

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#154

Post by lores »

k__ wrote: post #3

Trains are pretty awesome, especially in small Europe. Flying always comes with security hassle. A train is just: get in/get out. If Europe would just spent more money on infrastructure. We have trains in Germany that can do 350km/h but I've yet to ride one that goes faster than 200, probably because the rails aren't what they're used to be. Then we have the Germany Ticket. A 50€/month subscription to all regional tr…

Europe is always referred to as "small", but it's actually bigger than the US. It changes the perspective somewhat when you keep that in mind.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#155

Post by lopis »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #151
lopis wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think because cars became much more reliable, we felt we didn't need these anymore. The reintroduction of that type of service would mean you no longer thad to worry about your electric car's range when going on a road trip. The car could even charge while in the train.

> I think because cars became much more reliable, we felt we didn't need these anymore. Oh that's a good point. Cars got comfier too: nowadays with AC and they're quieter etc. > The car could even charge while in the train Oh that'd be completely amazing!

It would be like the hyperloop but actually useful and effective!

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#156

Post by beAbU »

enaaem wrote: post #15
eigenket wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the main "low hanging fruit" Europe has with trains are international birders, especially if they're trying to compete with flying. Trains in Poland work great, trains in Germany work pretty well but every train I've taken between Poland and Germany has been delayed. The standard thing is that while you're in Poland they claim the delay is because of previous delays in Germany and while you're in German…

Just built a separate international network, with its own separate system and tracks. The way Japan handles complexity is through redundancy. Japan runs both really old trains, hyper modern high speed rail and everything in between. Each system runs on separate tracks, are from different companies, and are not interconnected. This can be a lesson on how to run complex systems in general.

Just

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#157

Post by dukeyukey »

EEBio wrote: post #141
bluGill wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe mostly speaks a different language in every country, so the actual scale of Europe isn't the whole continent (or whole EU), but a single country. Sure you can travel to other countries, but there is a language barrier (though English is common enough to get by most places). Note that GP was talking about Germany with seeming no awareness that the situation is different in Switzerland, France, England and Spain…

Not only does English get you by in most big cities, a fair amount of European citizens are multilingual and often it’s the neighbouring countries that people speak the language of.

You'll bet by in English as a tourist, but you probably aren't getting a job with just English, and you're definitely not holding down a full social life either. Despite the EU's efforts at integration, Europe is still effectively separated by languages and cultures way beyond anything in North America.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#158

Post by chris-orgmenta »

cassepipe wrote: post #53
k__ wrote: post #3

Trains are pretty awesome, especially in small Europe. Flying always comes with security hassle. A train is just: get in/get out. If Europe would just spent more money on infrastructure. We have trains in Germany that can do 350km/h but I've yet to ride one that goes faster than 200, probably because the rails aren't what they're used to be. Then we have the Germany Ticket. A 50€/month subscription to all regional tr…

Personally my main gripe is not so much the speed as going to higher speed is probably less efficient hence more expensive. My main gripe is the price (I am poor by european standards). For example going from Paris to Napoli only by train is currently above 300 euros whereas you can find a flight for 40 euros. I am ready to pay around 100 euros for that. Recently there was sleeper car train from Paris to Milano which…

I think that the hidden benefits of open travel is highly elastic.

That is to say, that if we subsidized train travel, then there are benefits (open trade, comms, etc.) that are easily realised but that we don't see.

I feel it is so elastic (sorry, I'm misusing this term somewhat) that you can subsidize to an extremely high percentage without net cost (if all externalities could actually be known and costed in)

I want train journeys to be 50Euro Athens-Stockholm. 10Euro Paris-Hamburg. I want my taxes to pay the difference.

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#159

Post by dieortin »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #140

I have amazing memories, as a kid, of going on vacation with my parents, from Belgium to the french riviera... We'd load our car , a Lada (the Lada Riva, an horrible car btw), on the train and then, in the same train, we'd go to the passenger car. The trip was about 1100 km / 685 miles. The train would drive over night and we'd eat and sleep in the train and then arrived near destination next morning, we'd hop into o…

I think we’re better off not carrying a 2ton machine with us on trains. Just renting a car on your destination sounds way more efficient

Re: In Europe, trains are full, and more are on the way

#160

Post by mcv »

nilsherzig wrote: post #147
rubymamis wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trains in Italy and Spain were so much better than trains in Germany (I was a nomad in Europe for 1.5 years).

In what way?

I have no experience with trains in Spain or Italy, but trains in Germany are notoriously unreliable. I don't think I've had a single train trip through Germany in the past year without some kind of delay and extra hassle.

For our summer vacation, we travelled from Amsterdam to Switzerland. We had first class seats with one layover in Frankfurt. Frankfurt was a mess, the train was sent to a different station, our connecting train was cancelled, we had 5 layovers instead of 1, and had to stand. When we finally got to sit, we had no reserved seats and were split up. On the return trip, similar problem, though with less extra layovers.

A few months later, I went to Essen by train. The ICE stopped at Düsseldorf and the connection to Essen was delayed or I missed it because the UCE was delayed. Still best train experience in Germany that year.

The return from Essen, the train from Essen back to Düsseldorf was cancelled, and the connecting bus would guarantee I'd miss my last ICE and I'd have to spend the night at Düsseldorf. Instead, I paid a lot of money for a taxi to race me there. Got there in time, and at the last minute they sent the ICE to a different platform without clear notification, and I'm pretty sure a lot of people still missed that train. I fortunately noticed some people leaving the platform and informed some others who hadn't noticed.

Trains in Netherland and Switzerland are absolutely perfect, but to get from one to the other you have to go through Germany, and that's a problem.

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