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Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

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Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#151
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But sometimes, people tend to conflate a materialistic world view (maybe even strong determinism) with believing in the scientific method. I would say more than sometimes. It seems that if you're not like that, you're immediately labeled religious.

I like to disturb materialists, aka believers in the mechanical universe, with three observations: physics stands on GR and QM; GR says that any thing can dissolve into light (photons) that can, in principle, form any other thing; QM says that the entire universe evolves as one entity, that QM calls the wave function.

>GR says that any thing can dissolve into light (photons) that can, in principle, form any other thing

That's doubtful, source?

>QM says that the entire universe evolves as one entity, that QM calls the wave function.

It's local, but mystics expect nonlocal one.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#152

I have not heard a convincing explanation of how the universe could produce the Monorail episode of The Simpsons merely by a certain configuration of energies in the first moment of the big bang, and the consequences of thereof. The most obvious argument is that the Monorail episode of The Simpsons is not only possible in at least one of the infinitude of quantum, deterministic universes, but inevitable, and that the…

Computers already have arbitrarily complex behavior, is it absurd too?

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many-Worlds? Or does that fall under #2 for you?

Many worlds is really just another form of determinism. If everything that can happen does, no one in any of the individual universes has free will.

Free will is compatible with determinism. Also may worlds reproduces statistics of independent events, which is equivalent to hard indeterminism is you declare that choices are unitary.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#154
post #94

No new info. From the article: "So how deterministic is the Universe? The answer will depend on the final theory that bridges the divide between quantum physics and relativity — and that remains a far-off prospect." Unless physics is totally noise-free, with zero randomness, there is indeterminism. There are so many chaotic processes that amplify randomness that any randomness at all will cause wide divergence in out…

Noise doesn't necessarily participate in reasoning, it can be just a factor to ignore or smooth out. You can calculate 1+1 at a random moment of time, but the result will be 2 - deterministic in spite of present randomness.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#155

> Describing the precise positions and momenta of all the particles involved requires so much information that any statement of the initial condition is too complex to be a law. >Hartle suggested that quantum mechanics can solve this complexity problem. Because a quantum object’s wavefunction is spread out across many ‘classical’ states (cat alive or cat dead, for instance), you could propose a simple initial conditi…

Pretty sick sci fi novel plot in there at the least

Hey, if it worked for L. Ron Hubbard right…?

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#156
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which in other words makes superdeterminism unfalsifiable, because any attempt to do so can be met with "it must have been that way"

Of course every other QM interpretation is also unfalsifiable, e.g. Copenhagen (we have no definition of what constitutes an observation) or many-worlds (obviously unfalsifiable save for actually tunneling through into another universe and coming back to tell the tale)

>save for actually tunneling through into another universe and coming back to tell the tale

That's verification, not falsification. Many worlds can be falsified by demonstrating that the Schrodinger equation is nonlinear, which dynamic collapse research program tries to do.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#157

I feel like “deterministic” and “predictable” are often conflated. Suppose I give you the output of encoding a secret message with a one-time pad. Can you predict the message contents without the one-time pad? No. Does that mean the output was generated non-deterministically? No. More generally, there are strings with Kolmogorov complexity of at least the length of the string but for which the conditional Kolmogorov…

If an experiment has a consistent deterministic model, it indicates determinism, because it should be impossible to model indeterministic experiment deterministically.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#158
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For classical physics it's basically true[1]; see Laplace's demon. I recall also independently inventing determinism as a kid after I realized how easily I'd been swayed by external factors into buying one toy over another. For non-physical things, such as emotions and thought... well, we have no actual proof they're anything but physical. We just don't have proof that they're entirely physical, either. But the simpl…

I disagree that it's the simplest explanation. The starting point is the mind, because it's what asks the question. The physical world may or may not exist out there entirely independent of mind phenomena but the physical laws are a mental model in order to understand the world, the physical laws arise out of the interaction between the physical world and the mind. The operating order is like this: there is mind -> m…

The observed world looks materialistic, but such appearance is not required by idealism, and you will need to somehow explain this fine tuning.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily reality is nothing like this. Probably.

I suppose so - but then, if David Chalmers finds that it's conceivable that it is, it must be at least metaphysically possible.

It's still physically impossible.

Re: Does quantum theory imply the universe is preordained?

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I came to a very different conclusion on criminality in the absence of free will: compassion and understanding. How often do children do shitty things, and then say "I don't know" when asked why they did it? I have personally had problems lashing out in anger and not even understanding why. Our brains put a lot of effort into keeping us away from painful thoughts and memories. All of that is to say that you don't hav…

> But if there is no free will in the choices we make, what's the point of punishing people What's the point of hitting a ball to score a goal if the ball had no free will and it was moving deterministically? You punish people in order to provide incentives for people that would align with society's goals. Human being, having the input and knowledge that they would get punished, would make them avoid doing certain th…

We still enjoy things even if we aren't ultimately the prime mover of our own actions.

And I think the argument for punishment as deterence falls down in a few ways:

1) Absence of punishment does not mean absence of consequences. I'm still in favor of incarceration for violent offenders to protect society, but I think that people should be treated with dignity and respect while inside. I think incarceration is deterrence enough.

2) Disenfranchisement plays a role in why people commit crimes. If they distrust or resent the system, punishment only serves to reinforce their perception that the system isn't designed to help them, so why should they help the system?

3) People need to be led by example. What example does it set when COs use violence to control or punish, or turn a blind eye to violence between inmates?

I always find it funny the way people see leadership and authority as license to put people in their place and punish those who do wrong, and then they are surprised when the subjects of said leadership aren't pleasant, peaceful people. People raise their kids to thank their parents, but then they never thank their children. They say things like "I'm not going to thank someone for doing their job" and then wonder why their kids never say "thank you". It's because they weren't leading by example, they were just barking orders.

The point is, punishment is almost always misguided, free will or no. It is a bad motivator and a bad example. The less charitable among us could still reason that "bad" people still "deserve" punishment, but realizing that we aren't ultimately in control of our own actions just underscores the point that nobody actually "deserves" anything other than understanding and compassion for being on a ride that none of us actually asked for.

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