Why do programmers need private offices with doors? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#151

Post by yreg » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #136

ath3nd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https:…

Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.

We have a floorplan with offices of all sizes. (Ok, the biggest ones are like a mini open space - mostly used by flexdesk people who come in only from time to time).

It was more expensive, but we have zero issues with seat allocation. We don't force it and make teams always sit together. People are free to choose and switch their places, so often a project is spread across several offices and mixed with other projects.

I think it's certainly superior to having an open space.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#152

Post by gorgoiler » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

The arch keystone got me thinking. What is a keystone and what makes it different to any other stone in the arch? Surely all the stones in the arch are needed to hold the structure in place. If any stone were to be removed the structure would collapse after all.

Most arch stones are precisely cut. Or at least we pretend they are precise. The keystone is different because it’s an oversized wedge that you slide in at the end to pick up the slack. You can’t cut it precisely because you don’t know how big it needs to be until it’s doing its job. Once in place though, you can trim it down to make it look like you knew what you were doing all along.

There’s a metaphor here, I think, for the style of “engineering” we see in software. It’s not a value judgement other than to acknowledge that, with software, it’s ok to be good enough and to iterate. Lots of real world engineering is like that, but keystones may be an exception.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#153

Post by frameset » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:07 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #136

ath3nd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https:…

Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.

Good news! They can let the coders work from home and massively cut down the amount spent on insurance, office space, and furniture!

Weirdly, that's not popular with the decision making extroverts either...

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#154

Post by dmatech » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #136

ath3nd wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would win: - literally 100s of publications showing how disruptive and destructive to focus it is to be working in an open office work and how much distractions it brings: https://theconversation.com/returning-to-the-workplace-heres... https://hbr.org/2019/11/the-truth-about-open-offices https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/eve... https:…

Who wins? The CFO and corp real estate people (correctly) saying how much more expensive (and less flexible to changing team size) a building with enough private offices is.

They don't necessarily need to be big offices. It's just that corporations generally do seating based on seniority and status, not need. They have tiny cubes for worker bees and giant private offices for the queens.

Even small offices require more costly building materials than large cubicles. So even a high density might still be somewhat expensive. Fortunately, there are opportunities for cheaper commercial real estate these days, so someone has the opportunity to try something new.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#155

Post by picadores » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

The older i get the more i think, the project management paragdigm should be one of protecting the productive core at all costs from external disruptions.

This includes deriving the actual wanted goals early in the project, planning properly and the violently shield the engineers by keeping external factors like the management microcosm, stakeholders and non-developers busy with busywork, placated with blatant lies and overall away from doing damage. Regarding the engineer team organiziation - they will work something out.

They don't need that car-production-belt whistle and whip.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#156

Post by cevn » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #135

cevn wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everybody thinks their question is simple and quick, then it takes 30 minutes of time at minimum. I dunno why you are getting so much push back, must be a bunch of managers. Developers need to be left alone.

The push back is because it's extreme and one-sided. If you have some information that unblocks a team member, or another part of the business, say to make a sale, yes you should be interrupted. Your salary comes from somewhere, and your delivery is as a team, not an individual.

We all have access to the exact same information. Sure, for a first time on boarder, I'll point them the right way.

But 90% of the time someone taps on my shoulder, they want me to think for them. You can do that by yourself. Just send an email.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#157

Post by nprateem » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:11 PM UTC

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

It's never been a problem for me

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#158

Post by scbrg » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:12 PM UTC

cauch wrote: post #60

ath3nd wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair take. I am not trying to be condescending here, but it's hard to view this behavior as anything but overly disruptive. https://www.businessdit.com/distraction-work-statistics/ Instead of "just a quick question", the OP could prepare a list of their questions, and ask them all at the allocated time. A scheduled deep dive into the questions the OP has might even be more productive than multiple unscheduled disrupt…

So what you are asking is that OP destroy their own "deep work" a lot just that you don't get a mild distraction in yours. > And in an open office, even if you ask only a single person something, others might hear it too, despite the question not being intended to them. I guess I'm special, because when I'm in a "deep work", I just don't hear people around me. I know it's not the case of everyone, some of my colleagu…

> some of my colleagues just put noise-suppression headphones

Great. Now the rest of us have to put up with even more noise.

People wearing headphones make a lot more noise themselves. Presumably because they don't hear the noise they make. Suddenly there's heavy breathing, sighs, grunts, moans, inaudible and sometimes disturbingly audible mumbling, humming &c.

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#159

Post by Joel_Mckay » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:13 PM UTC

Some prefer chaotic backgrounds, while others consider the Monastic silence of a monastery truly divine.

For hard problems (months/years), I think it requires cycling through both context states for a time. This is something nootropics proponents often tend not to recognize.

Some hard problems will persist, no matter the amount of resources thrown at the issue. At some point a Plan B becomes C though Z, and its time to prune the project scope to ever hit a launch date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus

Quickly recognizing when a team has lost is important. =)

Re: Why do programmers need private offices with doors?

#160

Post by YetAnotherNick » Tue, Dec 19, 2023, 1:15 PM UTC

esskay wrote: post #106

It has to be said, if you're employing programmers and making them sit in an openplan office you're willingly and knowingly making their job significantly harder, and their day worse. Open plan might work great for some types of work, but for highly technical and mentally taxing work it's quite litterally the worst possible working environment you could be providing. There's a reason that many programmers prefer to w…

Private rooms are not cheap and it would be hard to justify for junior programmers. And having private space just for middle level folks is bad for morale and learning of junior folks.

But yeah for companies which just employs senior folks this should be the norm.