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The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

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Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#151

The book Hunt, Gather, Parent touches on this a bit. It takes 3-4 humans, not necessarily adults but cousins and whatnot, to take care of a child. Two? 6-8. Since western societies broke up tight knit communities, the support system for this in the west has been lacking and jerry rigged with tired parents and nannies etc ever since. The reason for the breakup is fun - https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/11/ro…

The main reason for the break up is the movement of people. Into cities for economic reasons or off to university.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#152

The book Hunt, Gather, Parent touches on this a bit. It takes 3-4 humans, not necessarily adults but cousins and whatnot, to take care of a child. Two? 6-8. Since western societies broke up tight knit communities, the support system for this in the west has been lacking and jerry rigged with tired parents and nannies etc ever since. The reason for the breakup is fun - https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/11/ro…

Interesting hypothesis, but I don’t know if I buy it. Much of India had also long barred cousin marriages, probably long before the Roman Catholic Church, but the dependencies and village raising the kids dynamic still existed (until recently). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapinda If I were to guess, the main causal factor is economic/security independence. If living in a tight knit village, sacrificing your freedom…

I think the analogy to fibers in food is very good (which I take from Wood o Eden). We now discover all kinds of similar phenomena.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#153
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's not really about responding to 100% of a child demands, it's maybe even detrimental, and probably better to start teaching him patience, and let him learn what to do in boredom. But the other part is having long and meaningful activities/experiences with a child

We decry "demands" when we should acknowledge "dependencies;" kids won't properly compile without their needs met.

We have brainwashed our western minds to make women leave their kids in daycare sometimes weeks after being born. Then we are brainwashed to let kids sleep in a separate room so that mommy can get a good night's rest and be productive at work. We need a minimum of 3 years of maternity leave in our country to being with. It is insane as one of the best countries in the world we don't let people have kids naturally.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#154
post #54

> the researchers say that children may be "evolutionarily primed" to expect exceptionally high levels of physical contact and care, What strikes me here is the phrase, "exceptionally high levels." I imagine children need a "normal" level of care; it's only "exceptionally high" in comparison to the deprived state of family systems in these degenerate times. I often reflect on the understanding in Attachment Theory, w…

I think it's not really about responding to 100% of a child demands, it's maybe even detrimental, and probably better to start teaching him patience, and let him learn what to do in boredom. But the other part is having long and meaningful activities/experiences with a child

I try to teach my baby to be patient when he’s hangry, but he slaps, punches, kicks and bites.

He doesn’t even say “I’m hangry, you incompetent giant”. He demands to be held in arms, he punches, bites and slaps my face. He did this for the first time when he was around 3 months old.

Patience is learnt through many years, specially when the belly is full.

Hangry people can turn violent, like most restaurant workers know.

As “the whole-brained child” book states, children can not be reasonable when they are in a tantrum

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#155
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly the right question. People make all kinds of assumptions and thanks to the corporate world, both sexes now slave away for the market: https://magarshak.com/blog/?p=286 I wrote that in 2017 and it's only gotten worse since then

People could accept lower living standards and opt for single income families. However, people like to compete, for purposes of fulfilling their own ego and attracting a mate. That is why higher income individuals attract other higher income individuals. Corporations did not make people competitive. People want financial freedom, people want to buy goods and services, and people want to attract a partner per their li…

Competition is not opt-in, especially when it's about scarce but required resources such as housing.

When the majority of households in the market became dual income, every single income family inevitably had to compete with them for housing as the prices for that have gone up to what the dual income families can afford to pay - and with that being a so large portion of most people's expenses, simply accepting 1950s (for example) living standards won't be sufficient to for a single income family to afford renting or buying a home in that city.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#156
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that we actually give kids massive amount of attention compared to historical standards ... calling current situation "degenerate" is absurd. Also considering that by many statistics, children do better then they used to just a few decades ago.

> Given that we actually give kids massive amount of attention compared to historical standards ... This is literally based on a comparison with hunger-gatherer societies. To the extent that there is any accuracy to your "compared to historical standards", its probably based on a low point reached (in the "developed" world) somewhere between the first industrial revolution and mid-20th century,

Primitive hunter-gatherer societies might have raised their children in a communal way, with relatives and friends living nearby, always interrupting and nagging us.

We, the supreme civilisation, at the summit of evolution, are locked in in individual cages, disconnected from each other, so we can spend more quality time attached to our screens.

We are “civilised to death”

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#157

> childcare needs to give parents an actual break. In my experience caring for your small children is really demanding work. On the one hand you need to be focused on the situation in order to protect the children and on the other hand there is not much going on for entertaining yourself. Creative or focused deep work where you get a positive feeling of accomplishment also counts as a break from childcare for me. So…

A saying most black Americans will be familiar with is, "It takes a village to raise a child." It resembles proverbs common to cultures across Africa; one could say that it's cultural knowledge embedded deeply within the African diaspora. American black culture is often derided as being inadequate, particularly in efforts to raise well-adjusted and pro-social children, but what's rarely mentioned by these commenters is how frequent and widespread are the historical and contemporary destruction and dissolution of black communities in America. In the too-common case of single mothers rearing children alone (the absence of the father often itself a product of poor social support), the difference seems to be in the presence or absence of older siblings, grandparents, aunts, uncles, and supportive teachers, especially when the mother is forced to work multiple jobs in order to cover ever-increasing expenses. (It should also be noted that when the father is present, married or not, he tends to spend more time with his children than fathers of other ethnicities.)

I bring this up in order to maybe open some minds as to why we see racial disparities of certain types - and also because, as mentioned by another commenter, the increasing atomization of families and communities of other ethnic groups threatens to replicate the aforementioned dysfunction. Common and widespread understanding of the dynamic could head-off tragedy; they hit us with crack before they hit y'all with opioids, after all.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the word "exceptionally" arises when comparing with other animals, the amount of effort a human child needs from its parents and family until an advanced age is unprecedented in other terrestrial companions.

Yeah maybe that’s why women live longer in order to help with the exhausting process of raising their grandchildren [1]. We love to take care of babies, regardless of (or maybe because of) how clingy and dependent they are. From an Evolutionary point of view, This relationship between needy babies and abnegated caregivers might have given rise to a complementary schimogenesis according to Gregory Bateson, in which ba…

Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's more joy.

And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear family structures. It all becomes easier for the children and the parents.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#159
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, it always a source of surprise to me that human babies will cry regardless of the situation, whereas the offspring of other animals seem to have an instinct to remain quiet while the mother is not about, or there's a perceived danger.

Well if you come with an assumption we are like the other animals you are going to make an ass of someone.

Well not like ALL animals, since not all animals act the same way. I don't expect we are like fish, that (some?many?most?) are abandoned as eggs to make it on our own, or like sharks that have two wombs and the mama-shark keeps generating eggs to feed the two stronger babies (one in each womb).

I assume that those who "group" us based on similarities on the behavior and manner we raise our offspring must have use some logic to the process.

Re: The key to mother and child well-being may be many caregivers

#160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah maybe that’s why women live longer in order to help with the exhausting process of raising their grandchildren [1]. We love to take care of babies, regardless of (or maybe because of) how clingy and dependent they are. From an Evolutionary point of view, This relationship between needy babies and abnegated caregivers might have given rise to a complementary schimogenesis according to Gregory Bateson, in which ba…

Yes, parenthood is intense, both both ways. It intensifies the highs and the lows. There's more strain and there's more joy. And there's a lot less strain when moving out of nuclear family structures. It all becomes easier for the children and the parents.

Can you elaborate? Curious how the stress profile differs in alternative family structures.
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