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They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

mit.edu

151–160 of 181 posts

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter how it "appears". A disembodied paragraph that I've transmitted to you can appear to be intelligent or not, but it only really matters in the sense that you can ascribe that intellect to an agent. The LLM isn't an agent and no intellect can be ascribed to it. It is a device actual intelligent agents have made and ascribing it intellect is equally as erroneous.

Why couldn't it be an agent for the short time that it's generating an intelligent looking paragraph? Do you know what gives rise to consciousness? If not how can we be sure it doesn't arise from a giant pile of linear algebra?

Consciousness is generated when the universe computes by executing conditionals/if statements. All machines are quantum/conscious in their degrees of freedom, even mechanical ones: https://youtu.be/mcedCEhdLk0?si=_ueWQvnW6HQUNxcm

The universe is a min-consciousness/min-decision optimized supercomputer. This is demonstrated by quantum eraser and double slit experiments. If a machine does not distinguish upon certain past histories of incoming information, those histories will be fed as a superposition, effectively avoiding having to compute the dependency. These optimizations run backwards, in a reverse dependency injection style algorithm, which gives credence to Wheeler-Feynman time-reversed absorber theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler%E2%80%93Feynman_absorb...

Lower consciousnesses make decisions which are fed as signal to higher consciousnesses. In this way, units like the neocortex can make decisions that are part of a broad conscious zoo of less complex systems, while only being burdened by their specific conditionals to compute.

Because quantum is about information systems, not about particles. It's about machines. And consciousness has always been "hard" for the subject, because they are a computer (E) affixed to memory (Mc^2.) All mass-energy in this universe is neuromorphic, possessing both compute (spirit) and memory (stuff.) Energy is NOT fungible, as all energy is tagged with its entire history of interactions, in the low frequency perturbations clinging to its wave function, effectively weak and old entanglements.

Planck's constant is the cost of compute per unit energy, 10^34 Hz/Joule. By multiplying by c^2, (10^8)^2, we can get Bremmerman's limit, the cost of compute per unit mass, 10^50 Hz/Kg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremermann%27s_limit

Humans are self-replicating biochemical decision engines. But no more conscious than other decision making entities. Now, sentience, and self-attention is a different story. But we should at the very least start with understanding that qualia are a mindscape of decision making. There is no such thing as conscious non-action. Consciousness is literally action in physics, energy revolving over time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_(physics) Planck's constant is a measure of quantum action, which effectively is the cost of compute..or rather..the cost of consciousness.

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#152
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we also exhibit odd and illogical cultural trends Culture is illogical. If it was logical, it wouldn’t be culture.

Huh? You don’t understand what culture is. The study of logic itself, science, philosophy, etc are all part of culture. Culture is a shared heritage without which you would still be cracking nuts open with rocks.

Culture might lead to logic, but the pursuit of logic is not, itself, logical.

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not illogical at all. A person that abuses animals is a potential menace to society - lack of empathy means they might easily abuse humans too. We are punishing sociopathic tendencies here. Farming animals is not sociopathic, it's a business decision based on economic interest. This works because animals don't have human rights. (Obviously.)

"lack of empathy means they might easily abuse humans too" So just in case, we should jail most of our animal farmers/slaughterhouse workers as well?

No, because animals don't have human rights.

We jail animal abusers based on a real-world idea of "pre-crime". (Unmotivated animal abuse strongly correlates with unmotivated violence against humans. For this same reason cartoon child porn is also illegal.)

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#154

Andy Weir's The Egg is another excellent short story: [1] http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html If you're looking for more short stories, I highly recommend the following: • Ted Chiang's Exhalation • Ted Chiang's Story of Your Life and Others • Ken Liu's Paper Menagerie • Borges's Ficciones • Smullyan's What is the Name of This Book? • Smullyan's Lady or the Tiger? • Douglas Adams's God's Debris Remember t…

Also Lena by qntm: https://qntm.org/mmacevedo

I like qtmn's short stories so much I bought the book Valuable Humans in Transit and Other Stories!

[1]: https://qntm.org/fiction

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#155

Andy Weir's The Egg is another excellent short story: [1] http://www.galactanet.com/oneoff/theegg_mod.html If you're looking for more short stories, I highly recommend the following: • Ted Chiang's Exhalation • Ted Chiang's Story of Your Life and Others • Ken Liu's Paper Menagerie • Borges's Ficciones • Smullyan's What is the Name of This Book? • Smullyan's Lady or the Tiger? • Douglas Adams's God's Debris Remember t…

The Egg is one of my life long favorite histories. kurzgesagt did a video animation of it a few years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fcK_fRYaI

Reminds me of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#156
post #21

I like how the word "meat" is clearly an inaccurate translation of a notion in the language of the conversation, for lack of a better word in human languages. "Organic matter" would be more accurate, but less striking. Meaning, "meat" is a variation on the "unreliable narrator" theme: the "unreliable language". This is used a lot in Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun , where medieval language describes artifacts of a s…

> Organic matter By weight we’re mostly made of inorganic molecules.

But it's not our bones doing the thinking. It's our potassium isotopes.

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#158
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And its sequel The Long Dark Tea-Time of the Soul. And the very strange not-for-everybody-but-definitely-for-me TV adaptation.

> And the very strange not-for-everybody-but-definitely-for-me TV adaptation. Hah!! There's _two_ of us! ;-) Okay, now I might actually try to make "that really cool jacket" from S2. (you know what I mean)

I really love that TV version. One of my favourite things on Netflix.

And I didn't think they could possibly follow up that first season with something equally weird without becoming repetitive, but they managed it.

Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#159
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

human-written words are not self-aware; they're just inert ink on paper, or the equivalent in other media. i've never seen even a small child make that error before. if you wrote that in earnest, you seem to be suffering from a bad kind of confusion and may need medical attention

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Re: They're Made Out of Meat (1991)

#160
post #96

I've never understood what people see in this story. Meat is a complex organization of trillions of self-replicating machines, each of which (besides red blood cells maybe) is also incredibly complex... much more advanced than anything human minds have been able to build. I can't imagine what a sentient entity would have to be made out of or how much less "efficient" or stable it would have to be than me for me to fi…

My recollection is that there was quite a lot of debate back then on whether machines would be able to think or be conscious with arguments on the can't think side being Searle's Chinese Room and similar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room), which I always thought was a bit silly and people don't seem to take seriously now but did back in 1991.

The Made of Meat story was quite a nice counter argument to that.

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