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Tragedy of return to hostile offices

benjiweber.co.uk

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Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#151

Post by wiseowise »

manuelabeledo wrote: post #17

In some ways, OP’s suggestions are a recipe for building hostile teams! Why would I be entitled to interrupt someone to review my code, just because they are sitting next to me? Always on zoom? No, thanks. It invariably devolves into micromanaging. Constant KPI awareness? Most companies cannot even agree on how a valuable KPI looks like. Remote pair programming? Honest question here, is pair programming still a thing…

> Why would I be entitled to interrupt someone to review my code, just because they are sitting next to me?

Yes, and because your work depends on them.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#152

Post by iteratethis »

A lot of people work virtually regardless of their location. You can return to the office but it doesn't stop. You still work as if it was remote because there will always be somebody in the meeting that isn't there. They could be at home, in a different building, or a vendor in another country.

Such is the consequence of complex organizations and outsourcing, as well as employees increasing demands to have a say in their schedule.

When you really think about it, collaboration is the problem rather than the solution. The modern distributed nature of work means that you need a huge amount of collaboration to even figure out what to do, when, and to resolve all dependencies.

So it's pretty maddening that managers call for more collaboration. We need less of it. The perfect workflow is where you tell me with clarity what to do, and then let me do it without distractions or changing everything halfway-through.

Modern employees spent half their time in email, chat and meetings. Not producing anything. And that's generous, quite a few have to find actual productive time in the fragmented 10% of their schedule. It's as if we've all become managers.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#153

Post by 2023throwawayy »

Galanwe wrote: post #146
tristor wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> you are incredibly lucky > Says who? Says anyone who has spent more than a decade in the workforce. > There's no more reason for an office space to be bad rather than good. And there's no reason to think that having a good one is based on luck. By “no reason”, you mean no logical reason. That might be true. Unfortunately a crafted reality controlled by sociopaths isn’t required to be logically consistent at every…

> Says anyone who has spent more than a decade in the workforce. Well, no. I have worked almost double that, and I don't feel that way. I tend to think there is mainly an echo chamber of somewhat entitled young north americans incorrectly correlating high compensation in a decade long hyped industry (tech) with social status. > a crafted reality controlled by sociopaths Well if that is your definition of reality, may…

> I tend to think there is mainly an echo chamber of somewhat entitled young north americans

> you should reflect on whether your look at the situation is biased

LOL this is a troll right?

... right?

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#154

Post by jauntywundrkind »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #99
ericbarrett wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep saying—if you want me to return to the office, give me an office . Or even a cubicle. Why even enforce a hot-desking setup when the space is 20% full? It makes no sense at all!

For all the memes about cubicles the one time I had it was actually pleasant. You could have a small meeting in the cubicle. The walls were tall enough to hang up reference diagrams. Those same walls meant that sound didn't travel when your PM was on yet another call. Not being able to see a window was a downside. As was there oppressive grey-beige monotony, but I imagine with the Google colour palette they'd be much…

I'm semi interested in the Meta "Cube" cubical, using a sound absorbing adjustable soft 4th partition walls. Made of recycled PET. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35118315

There's various sound absorbing partitions one can buy online that seem kind of neat. But many seem to start at $1000, which suuucckkkss. I wonder what the bulk rate is for material like recycled pet. Not that I have any idea how to turn it into a soft-ish adjustable sound absorbing wall...

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#155

Post by tsunamifury »

tristor wrote: post #118
Galanwe wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you are incredibly lucky Says who? There's no more reason for an office space to be bad rather than good. And there's no reason to think that having a good one is based on luck. If office space dynamics and setup are important to you, then put it in your job search mental list and find a job that matches that.

>> you are incredibly lucky > Says who? Says anyone who has spent more than a decade in the workforce. > There's no more reason for an office space to be bad rather than good. And there's no reason to think that having a good one is based on luck. By “no reason”, you mean no logical reason. That might be true. Unfortunately a crafted reality controlled by sociopaths isn’t required to be logically consistent at every…

Yea I can’t help but realize after my career in offices then seeing mass wfh, the sociopath layer depended deeply on a perceived panopticon of working in the office. The panopticon was a negative motivator for workers, but also a common experience that standardized the culture and expectations.

WFH was like setting rats in a maze to free range and noticing they can be more productive but at the expense of common purpose. This brings a new dimension to the notion of “productive” that the sociopath layer is uncomfortable with. I think because it implies workforce instability.

Even Google, a company that purported to be about worker freedom to harvest productivity if top workers, has retreated to this position.

It’s a bit shocking to me still nearly 4 years later.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#156

Post by [deleted] »

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #80
Devasta wrote: post #19

I work in Cork, Ireland. My boss is in Dublin, his boss Singapore, my staff in Nova Scotia, Devs in Manila, clients in London and New York. I'm always working remotely, no matter where I am, as is anyone who works in any multi office company. The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple wit…

> the fact they dont have friends or hobbies and need you in the office so that they dont feel like such embarrassing losers You must be a great person to work with if this is whats going on with your internal monologue about the people you interact closely with.

[deleted]

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#157

Post by nebula8804 »

medvezhenok wrote: post #106
vladvasiliu wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what is the point? If we can all agree that going to the office sucks, how is the "professional class" being forced back in the office make the other workers' day suck less? I'd argue it's quite the opposite! If I stay at home, I'm one less person compressing them in the metro, or helping gridlock the highways or taking up parking spaces (I live in the city where parking is scarce for pretty much everyone). If I…

We are also in the class that's driving housing prices up (via geographic arbitrage) and pricing out a lot of forced in-person workers (who actually live "far away" as you said, and not in the city center). And that does breed a lot of resentment. So in some ways (i.e. housing prices), you working from home does directly make these people lives worse, as you are now their competition for real-estate.

That was a serious problem before WFH was a thing. Fix the underlying issue not the symptom!

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#158

Post by graywh »

Pet_Ant wrote: post #99
ericbarrett wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep saying—if you want me to return to the office, give me an office . Or even a cubicle. Why even enforce a hot-desking setup when the space is 20% full? It makes no sense at all!

For all the memes about cubicles the one time I had it was actually pleasant. You could have a small meeting in the cubicle. The walls were tall enough to hang up reference diagrams. Those same walls meant that sound didn't travel when your PM was on yet another call. Not being able to see a window was a downside. As was there oppressive grey-beige monotony, but I imagine with the Google colour palette they'd be much…

cubicle walls or not, windows are often blocked by office walls

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#159

Post by tsunamifury »

Galanwe wrote: post #146
tristor wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> you are incredibly lucky > Says who? Says anyone who has spent more than a decade in the workforce. > There's no more reason for an office space to be bad rather than good. And there's no reason to think that having a good one is based on luck. By “no reason”, you mean no logical reason. That might be true. Unfortunately a crafted reality controlled by sociopaths isn’t required to be logically consistent at every…

> Says anyone who has spent more than a decade in the workforce. Well, no. I have worked almost double that, and I don't feel that way. I tend to think there is mainly an echo chamber of somewhat entitled young north americans incorrectly correlating high compensation in a decade long hyped industry (tech) with social status. > a crafted reality controlled by sociopaths Well if that is your definition of reality, may…

Haha this is like a really poor attempt at PowerTalk and sociopathy from a wannabe executive.

Re: Tragedy of return to hostile offices

#160

Post by mattgreenrocks »

Devasta wrote: post #19

I work in Cork, Ireland. My boss is in Dublin, his boss Singapore, my staff in Nova Scotia, Devs in Manila, clients in London and New York. I'm always working remotely, no matter where I am, as is anyone who works in any multi office company. The RTO is being entirely driven from the top by institutional investors wanting to avoid losses on property investments and from the bottom by those who have yet to grapple wit…

WFH is existentially painful for those that have coupled their identity too strongly to their jobs. They're confronted daily with the fact that their coworkers just aren't that into them (e.g. the job, and by extension, them) as they'd like. The likelihood this has happened goes up significantly as you move up the ladder, because the volcano gods demand sacrifice for that.

There's also a segment of the population that somewhat overlaps with the previous paragraph that uses work as their primary social outlet.

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