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Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

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Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#151

Post by aborsy »

rvnx wrote: post #56
lawn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please remember that unions in Sweden aren't the same as unions in the US.

I understand the feeling of Aborsy; in another European country (France) Unions are a non-elected political force that seizes power by force in a factory / company. Once they have established their power, they do anything they can to impose their law on other workers and collect money from both the owners, and the other employees. And to be considered part of the group, you have to pay an annual membership to them in…

Indeed, I was speaking of the notorious French unions! I have written several long comments in HN on their ills.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#152

Post by aborsy »

eddtries wrote: post #63
rvnx wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the feeling of Aborsy; in another European country (France) Unions are a non-elected political force that seizes power by force in a factory / company. Once they have established their power, they do anything they can to impose their law on other workers and collect money from both the owners, and the other employees. And to be considered part of the group, you have to pay an annual membership to them in…

I pay a couple dollars a year in Sweden and my union offers unemployment insurance, 80% of my salary for six months if I’m laid off. I’m okay with that annual membership if that was all I got :)

You gain in those items and may lose in others. It probably depends on how the unions are set up.

For example, my work environment in France was so toxic that over time I developed psychological problems, because the institution could not address the abuse, harassment, bullying, etc, since everyone had secure permanent contracts protected by unions.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#153

Post by Moru »

dv_dt wrote: post #13
DanielHB wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had 3.5% union-agreed raise this year against an almost 10% inflation year-on-year. In Sweden the unions are not out to screw the employers over, the unions know the companies are under stress due to market downturn and share the burden with employees. Before the downturn I consistently had at least 1% raise above inflation for several years.

That seems like it supports the principle of shared pain and shared profit and it’s good that the laws and company/union structure supports that. I think it’s better for stable long term stability and growth of a nation.

Can you tell Musk etc this? They havn't gotten the message yet. McDonads got it after trying on the Danish union though and is playing ball.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#154

Post by Moru »

dagw wrote: post #138
dylan604 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have issues with unions becoming way too powerful and prevent things from being done efficiently. I get certain aspects are safety related like needing an electrician to come in to wire up certain things. But I've had a friend that was a network installer that was allowed to mount the gear in the rack and wire in the low voltage ethernet cabling, but was not allowed to attache the power cord. That required the time…

That required the time of an electrician union member. For what it's worth, that is simply not a thing in Sweden. Being a union member (or not) is completely separated from any certifications or licensing. You cannot have being a union member as a requirement for hiring someone or have jobs that are only open to union members.

As we keep saying, US Unions !== Swedish Unions (Or Scandinavian for that matter)

Maybe the US Unions need to change name to something else because they act nothing like Unions in Europe. From what I see described by movies and companies it sounds more like Maffia, is that correct or is it propaganda?

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#155

Post by avgcorrection »

basro wrote: post #130
avgcorrection wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please explain how this is akin to organized crime. I’m dying to know.

I think I agree that it's akin to organized crime, it's a case of "the goal justifies the means". You see the goal of forcing union usage as a noble thing so you agree with these means. If the goal was one that you don't see as noble you'd definitely agree that it's very organized crime like.

So I would agree that it is criminal if I didn’t like it. That doesn’t tell me anything.

> If the goal was one that you don't see as noble you'd definitely agree that it's very organized crime like.

Categorizing things as being criminal because you don’t like them is a juvenile sort of thinking.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#156

Post by geo1999 »

In America , Corporate Interests and demands are taken more seriously than the Rights of Citizens or what the Law states. And our Senators and Congress fall right in line behind the Chamber of Commerce to make sure Unions do not expand and our citizens are denied their lawful rights to organize any unions. Corporations hold meetings threating loss of jobs if any organizing by any employees. They turn employees against each other. All this is illegal but our elected officials go along with the companies and they can do what they want.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#157

Post by dylan604 »

Moru wrote: post #154
dagw wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That required the time of an electrician union member. For what it's worth, that is simply not a thing in Sweden. Being a union member (or not) is completely separated from any certifications or licensing. You cannot have being a union member as a requirement for hiring someone or have jobs that are only open to union members.

As we keep saying, US Unions !== Swedish Unions (Or Scandinavian for that matter) Maybe the US Unions need to change name to something else because they act nothing like Unions in Europe. From what I see described by movies and companies it sounds more like Maffia, is that correct or is it propaganda?

their tactics are very maffiaesque. a previous job went through the process to vote for a union, and during the lead up to it, there were definite examples of pressuring to family members. two individuals showed up to my apartment while i was at work, and were best described by my roommate as goons. they tried to talk to my roommate about why it would be a good idea for me to join even though the roommate had nothing to do with anything i did. she told me it was a very surreal experience.

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#158

Post by VirusNewbie »

piva00 wrote: post #86
VirusNewbie wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except immigrants will come to the country and be willing to work for lower wages, they will be OK without taking the union benefits. Unions are a way to enrich current members by creating an exclusive cartel. How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less?

> How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less? By having a collective bargaining agreement setting the minimum pay the company is allowed, leveling the playing field to remove exploitative measures like that.

How is it exploitative? If people coming from other areas want to work for cheaper because they're willing, do you think they shouldn't have an opportunity to do so?

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#159

Post by piva00 »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #158
piva00 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you deal with the fact that there are people willing to work for less? By having a collective bargaining agreement setting the minimum pay the company is allowed, leveling the playing field to remove exploitative measures like that.

How is it exploitative? If people coming from other areas want to work for cheaper because they're willing, do you think they shouldn't have an opportunity to do so?

No, they shouldn't, that is the definition of exploitative, offering someone a lower pay because they are desperate enough to accept it. It's a race to the bottom and something needs to stop it.

That shouldn't happen, you need some morality in this amoral system so it can be less exploitative, one way to set some moral guidance is to have a minimum threshold of what people should be paid for a job given that others are already offered that for a similar skillset. Willing to work for less in exchange of other benefits (like moving to a different society) only creates cascading issues for the others who aren't in that desperate position, eroding the labour market.

If people were willing to be slaves, should we allow them?

Re: Swedish unions strike: Blocks mail and package deliveries for Tesla

#160

Post by VirusNewbie »

piva00 wrote: post #159
VirusNewbie wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it exploitative? If people coming from other areas want to work for cheaper because they're willing, do you think they shouldn't have an opportunity to do so?

No, they shouldn't, that is the definition of exploitative, offering someone a lower pay because they are desperate enough to accept it. It's a race to the bottom and something needs to stop it. That shouldn't happen, you need some morality in this amoral system so it can be less exploitative, one way to set some moral guidance is to have a minimum threshold of what people should be paid for a job given that others a…

I don't understand your reasoning. If an immigrant is happy to have a standard of living lower than what you consider acceptable, and willing to work for slightly lower wages, do you think it is is unfair to either:

1. Bar them from entry into your country 2. Allow them in, but prevent them from offering their services at a lower rate to compete with locals?

Because ultimately, if you let them in and don't let them work, some of them are going to be supported by social services those workers are paying for indirectly.

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