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Forty years of programming

fabiensanglard.net

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Re: Forty years of programming

#151

Post by SulphurCrested »

phero_cnstrcts wrote: post #144
SulphurCrested wrote: post #130

This is going to be controversial, but what saved me was abandoning a keyboard-intense environment (emacs + command line) for Apple’s Xcode. I do still build much of the time at the command line, but editing code and switching between windows is mouse-heavy.(You can use Xcode as just a text editor if you like.) I cut and paste by selecting with the mouse where possible. I have a gaming mouse with a button programmed…

Having to use the mouse frustrates me. Have you tried an ergonomic keyboard?

Ask yourself why it frustrates you. Perhaps you can’t see exactly where the click will be – a high res screen makes a difference. Perhaps you haven’t learned all the mouse shortcuts. Two on macOS are: triple-click to select a whole line; and click, scroll down using PGDOWN or mouse actions, then SHIFT-click to select everything between the two. Perhaps it’s just a bad mouse.

I use a tenkeyless keyboard, which doesn’t have the calculator block at the right. The ones which have it I find put the mouse too far off to my right. It’s very important to me that there are OPTION and COMMAND keys on both sides of the keyboard, so that the opposite hand is doing the shifting; I’m never pressing two keys at once with fingers from the same hand. I’ve never used an ergonomic keyboard.

Re: Forty years of programming

#152

Post by benreesman »

lordnacho wrote: post #124
benreesman wrote: post #122

Forty years is just a crazy amount. I’ve been doing it for 30 and getting paid for 20, and I know my stuff: but not to that level. Fabien is just a demigod. Given the long ass hours I’m pushing 100k hours in this trade, and I feel like I’m really finding my feet in the last 1-3 years. This is one of those trades where you can do amazing shit on the first day, but you’re still a work in progress just decades in. I lov…

I don't know, I don't think I'll ever feel hyper competent, the way I think of some of these people you come across. I certainly know a lot more than 20 years ago. But I always feel like there's more and more layers. Just browsing this site I find something every few days to add to my reading list. In a way that's good, not feeling like I've hit some experience ceiling.

I mean, there’s always a next level, but I’ve seen your comments over the years and IIRC you’re like an extreme low-latency prop shop pro with serious quant chops too?

There’s more elite stuff (RenTech, CERN, the Equation Group?), but that’s pretty elite man.

If that’s not hyper-competent I shudder to think what is.

Re: Forty years of programming

#153

Post by Izkata »

cassepipe wrote: post #140
hollerith wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh. I find ESC easier to type than Caps Lock because it is in the corner of the keyboard. I used to have RSI and what solved it (over 15 years ago) was taking more care to hit the precise center of the key. Using my sense of touch to sense the key's exact location before even trying to activate the key helps me do that. When the key is on left edge of the keyboard, it is easier to do the determination of the exact l…

Vim stockholm syndrome ? I don't know about RSI yet but I do know one thing : Vim workflow is to make a quick edit and then go back to normal mode as quickly as you can. This prevent accidental inserts and you are always back at the command center for your next edit. The same way some people understood most of the time is spent reading code rather than writing, vim's insight is that more time is spent doing edits tha…

For me it's the same as them, and it's because I don't bother with home row typing. Too restrictive, my fingers don't easily bend that way. Instead I do a sort of whole-(laptop)-keyboard thing where I know where the keys are relative to the edges, and use my shoulders and elbows to move my hands as much as I use my wrists - no twisting needed, so Escape is as easy to hit as most other keys.

Re: Forty years of programming

#154

Post by xctr94 »

CapsAdmin wrote: post #101

I'm only 33 but never had any issues with joint pains or anything like that whereas my peers, some younger and some older struggle with this and use various methods like ergonomic keyboards, massage sessions, stretching, etc to help ease the pain. I've used a traditional mouse and keyboard since I was around 7 and can easily spend a whole day in front of my computer. Lately I've been wondering if it's simply just my…

The basic advice I got to avoid RSI (from an ortho) was dynamic movement. Move. Change position a lot. Sit back, forward, turn, get up, yell at the neighbors, etc. Any movement is the point, as it activates your tendons and joints. Seems to work.

Re: Forty years of programming

#155

Post by packetlost »

lproven wrote: post #150

There's an elephant in this room. Are you all ignoring it deliberately? Reading all these comments from people about what they do/don't do. Nobody seems to address the giant stinking pachyderm: are you right or left handed? Left handers have to exercise their right hands, because of all the kit made for the right-handed majority. Almost all these fancy vertical mice are right-hand only. In fact most mice are RH only.…

I'm left handed, but I very early on (ie. like around age 5-6) I switched to using my right hand with a mouse. Since getting wrist pain in my right hand, I've purchased a magic trackpad which I keep to the left of my keyboard and I alternate between left w/ touchpad and right w/ mouse. It's worked very well for me!

Re: Forty years of programming

#156

Post by hollerith »

Izkata wrote: post #153
cassepipe wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vim stockholm syndrome ? I don't know about RSI yet but I do know one thing : Vim workflow is to make a quick edit and then go back to normal mode as quickly as you can. This prevent accidental inserts and you are always back at the command center for your next edit. The same way some people understood most of the time is spent reading code rather than writing, vim's insight is that more time is spent doing edits tha…

For me it's the same as them, and it's because I don't bother with home row typing. Too restrictive, my fingers don't easily bend that way. Instead I do a sort of whole-(laptop)-keyboard thing where I know where the keys are relative to the edges, and use my shoulders and elbows to move my hands as much as I use my wrists - no twisting needed, so Escape is as easy to hit as most other keys.

>use my shoulders and elbows to move my hands as much as I use my wrists

Yes, that is what I do. In particular, no muscle ever needs to stretch to anything close to the limit of its range of motion the way I type because the shoulders and the elbows can move over a much larger range than what is needed for moving the hand around its half of the keyboard.

Note that there is a third alternative, namely to keep the palm of the hand stationary and use the tiny muscles that move the finger left or right relative to the palm, which strikes me as even worse than bending the wrist left or right, and there is a keyboard called the DataHand that encourages, nay, requires, that:

https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?t=16008

This DataHand keyboard has very bad ergonomics, IMHO, and my guess is that switching to it causes more RSI than it prevents.

Re: Forty years of programming

#157

Post by ustad »

SulphurCrested wrote: post #151
phero_cnstrcts wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having to use the mouse frustrates me. Have you tried an ergonomic keyboard?

Ask yourself why it frustrates you. Perhaps you can’t see exactly where the click will be – a high res screen makes a difference. Perhaps you haven’t learned all the mouse shortcuts. Two on macOS are: triple-click to select a whole line; and click, scroll down using PGDOWN or mouse actions, then SHIFT-click to select everything between the two. Perhaps it’s just a bad mouse. I use a tenkeyless keyboard, which doesn’t…

Whats the keyboard you have?

Re: Forty years of programming

#158

Post by __MatrixMan__ »

hollerith wrote: post #77
cassepipe wrote: post #52

Dear Vim beginner, before getting a fancy keyboard, do remap Esc to some other key. It makes no sense to have your most important key where it is nowadays. The reason the back to normal mode key is ESC is because that key used to be much closer from the home row. My personal preference is to use Caps Lock because each OS has an easy solution for this simple remap and since it's system wide you can use vim modes elsew…

Huh. I find ESC easier to type than Caps Lock because it is in the corner of the keyboard. I used to have RSI and what solved it (over 15 years ago) was taking more care to hit the precise center of the key. Using my sense of touch to sense the key's exact location before even trying to activate the key helps me do that. When the key is on left edge of the keyboard, it is easier to do the determination of the exact l…

> Using my sense of touch to sense the key's exact location before even trying to activate the key helps me do that.

I like to use different kinds of keycaps on the same keyboard to give myself tactical hints for this reason. It's common to have `f` and `j` differentiated, but I also have different textures for differentiating the alpha keys from their neighbors and for what I consider "home" for my thumbs.

Re: Forty years of programming

#159

Post by lproven »

packetlost wrote: post #155
lproven wrote: post #150

There's an elephant in this room. Are you all ignoring it deliberately? Reading all these comments from people about what they do/don't do. Nobody seems to address the giant stinking pachyderm: are you right or left handed? Left handers have to exercise their right hands, because of all the kit made for the right-handed majority. Almost all these fancy vertical mice are right-hand only. In fact most mice are RH only.…

I'm left handed, but I very early on (ie. like around age 5-6) I switched to using my right hand with a mouse. Since getting wrist pain in my right hand, I've purchased a magic trackpad which I keep to the left of my keyboard and I alternate between left w/ touchpad and right w/ mouse. It's worked very well for me!

Good plan!

I didn't have that option as I was born shortly before Douglas Engelbart did the "mother of all demos". Mice hadn't really been invented yet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos

Sadly for me I crippled my right arm in a bicycle crash in April and now it's quite painful to use it for a mouse, so I use it in my left hand mainly now... but I am working on it.

Re: Forty years of programming

#160

Post by lordnacho »

benreesman wrote: post #152
lordnacho wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know, I don't think I'll ever feel hyper competent, the way I think of some of these people you come across. I certainly know a lot more than 20 years ago. But I always feel like there's more and more layers. Just browsing this site I find something every few days to add to my reading list. In a way that's good, not feeling like I've hit some experience ceiling.

I mean, there’s always a next level, but I’ve seen your comments over the years and IIRC you’re like an extreme low-latency prop shop pro with serious quant chops too? There’s more elite stuff (RenTech, CERN, the Equation Group?), but that’s pretty elite man. If that’s not hyper-competent I shudder to think what is.

Well no matter how extreme, it always seems like other people are smarter. For me personally I don't like playing where it's all about latency either.
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