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Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

nytimes.com

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Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#151

Post by makeitdouble »

granzymes wrote: post #138
makeitdouble wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they only have 50%+ market share, vs the 90%+ they have on android for instance, I'd argue it's a sign the defaults have a serious impact.

Defaults definitely matter (that's why Google pays Apple for default status), but legally what matters is if the contracts are exclusive . That's what this fight over the "power of defaults" is about. Microsoft and the government argue that they are exclusive because, while consumers can change the default, they don't in practice. But the fact that consumers clearly know how to change the default on Edge fatally unde…

I forgot the scope were so limited in the US. Going back to the Microsoft trials vs the EU, there was no exclusivity limitation, users could use other browser, or install other OSes, the point was solely on what pressure MS put to be the first choice.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#152

Post by cellis »

lolinder wrote: post #73
havnagiggle wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Microsoft is in the game of being a big business, and demonstrably is not in the group that needs a fair market to thrive. MS is/was willing to make the same deals as Google for defaults, it's just Google valued it more. They should be in hot seat #2. Smaller companies like DDG, Brave, Kagi are the ones trying to build narrow, competitive businesses in the search and browser space. If those are struggling due…

Microsoft's size is part of what makes their testimony so valuable to the government here. If even Microsoft's CEO is willing to testify under oath that Google's practices make breaking into search impossible, that's extremely relevant to the case. Leaving that testimony out because there are smaller companies that are also hurt would be foolish. The ideal witness makeup would be composed of a combination of large, m…

I’ll say what everyone is thinking but won’t say; Bing is a horrible name and is a theme of Microsoft’s lackluster approach to search and, well, anything internet. They slow-follow. So why should they have an easy time competing against Google?

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#153

Post by M4v3R »

theshrike79 wrote: post #147
lemoncookiechip wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft has all the same services that Google has, including the ones you just mentioned and more. Bing, Outlook, Bing Maps, Microsoft Store, Azure, Windows, Edge, Office, OneDrive, XBOX division, and more. If they can't compete with Google, then maybe they aren't offering as good a service for most of these, and it's not for lack of trying to manipulate the market into using their services. I do agree with what yo…

It's not for a lack of trying, but Google has their tentacles everywhere. You literally can't make a mobile phone today without having support for all Google services. Native support is better than 3rd party. And now all of your user's data is in Google's hands. Yes, there are some extreme ... fanatics(?), who can live with a phone that doesn't have YouTube, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Drive or Play Store in it, but t…

> Yes, there are some extreme ... fanatics(?), who can live with a phone that doesn't have YouTube, Gmail, Google Maps, Google Drive or Play Store in it, but the Joe/Jill Regular will never ever go for that today.

I would fit your definition of fanatic and I have a friend who does too. The only google service we still use is YouTube because that’s the hardest one to replace entirely unless you want to cut yourself from a lot of very interesting and entertaining content. Otherwise it’s not so hard. Gmail is hardly the best offering on the market, Apple Maps are good enough for most tasks (Google Maps still has better POI data sadly), etc. You don’t need to be a “fanatic” to de-googleify your life, even if only partially.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#154

Post by robertlagrant »

hackernewds wrote: post #98
whiddershins wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The victims are the public. Edit: to clarify, I believe this is the actual legal basis of anti monopoly legislation. Protection of the interests of the public, not competitor companies.

Exactly. The point of an antitrust trial is not to transfer power and resources to competitors. It's to transfer power and resources to the voting public. As guilty as Microsoft might be, it's rich of Microsoft with its monopolies (without which a lot of its subpar products like outlook and Teams and Edge would go poof) to be abdicating Google here.

It's not about transferring resources. It's about making sure there's enough competition.

Ironically, there is more and more search competition appearing. Bing isn't great, but other things are.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#157

Post by jfoster »

robertlagrant wrote: post #154
hackernewds wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. The point of an antitrust trial is not to transfer power and resources to competitors. It's to transfer power and resources to the voting public. As guilty as Microsoft might be, it's rich of Microsoft with its monopolies (without which a lot of its subpar products like outlook and Teams and Edge would go poof) to be abdicating Google here.

It's not about transferring resources. It's about making sure there's enough competition. Ironically, there is more and more search competition appearing. Bing isn't great, but other things are.

Could you please elaborate on what the other things are?

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#158

Post by b112 »

hackernewds wrote: post #98
whiddershins wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The victims are the public. Edit: to clarify, I believe this is the actual legal basis of anti monopoly legislation. Protection of the interests of the public, not competitor companies.

Exactly. The point of an antitrust trial is not to transfer power and resources to competitors. It's to transfer power and resources to the voting public. As guilty as Microsoft might be, it's rich of Microsoft with its monopolies (without which a lot of its subpar products like outlook and Teams and Edge would go poof) to be abdicating Google here.

If summoned and under oath, it is neither rich or not. Stating fact is just that.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#159

Post by mjan22640 »

jessriedel wrote: post #112
CPLX wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it doesn't. There's truth to your statement in the sense that there's now a generation of confused judges that think this is true. But the plain language of US antitrust statutes is pretty clear on this point, simply engaging in certain kinds of anti-competitive behavior is illegal, you definitely do not need to prove that the illegal behavior had specific effects.

The plain language of the statute doesn't matter much once legal precedent is entrenched. This is especially true when the plain language is incredibly underspecified. For those who don't know, the Sherman antitrust act has only two key paragraphs (and six procedural paragraphs). > Sec. 1. Every contract, combination in the form of trust or other- wise, or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the sever…

The courts are bound by the law arent they. Ie what is stated in the law is illegal, and anything else is legal.

Re: Microsoft CEO testifies that Google’s power in search is ubiquitous

#160

Post by em500 »

firecall wrote: post #136
bettercallsalad wrote: post #27

I am not following these testimonies in anti-trust cases where they have a competitor of Google testify against Google. Isn’t testifying all about presenting evidence? If I am accused of theft in a criminal court and my arch rival is brought for testimony against me, it doesn’t sound like a fair process to me. Of course if it’s a substantiated material it would make sense but otherwise it doesn’t just makes sense at…

> Google as a search engine is far better than Bing and that’s just a fact. It was better than Bing... Two things: 1) HN and elsewhere constantly point out how bad Google Search is lately 2) The introduction of ChatGPT and DALL-E powered Bing into Edge, the new Windows Sidebar and elsewhere has changed the game. The new Windows 11 Bing/ChatGPT/DALL-E sidebar is so good that my hot-take is that it's going to put a den…

> 1) HN and elsewhere constantly point out how bad Google Search is lately

I've been reading this on Slashdot back in the days, before HN or Reddit even existed.

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