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Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

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Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#151

Post by dfxm12 »

sanderjd wrote: post #149
dfxm12 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it's not an example of an example of law enforcement going unpunished, as you said? If this gets buried and nobody deigns to prosecute it... Is this one is the last straw, then?

I don't understand your first question. To your second question, no, it's not a last straw situation. I've been outraged by specific things in the past, and I'm sure I will be again in the future. But I'm not outraged by this specific thing, in the present, because all signs point to these people being brought to justice in due time.

I don't understand your first question.

You said that the people involved were punished: This isn't an example of law enforcement attacks on the press going unpunished. You then walked back this comment when pressed: The punishment is not a "was", it is a "will be". I get it, though. Your original comment is not defensible.

all signs point to these people being brought to justice in due time

What signs? There's a history of cops doing this, getting caught and and the biggest reaction (I don't think this meets the level of "punishment") might be quietly moving them to another jurisdiction. I thought this was common knowledge, but I guess it needed to be spelled out. A lack of punishment (jail time, revocation of pension, whatever), is more or less codified as QI. Maybe the city gets sued and taxpayers have make a payout to the victim (these are civil cases). You seem to be implying that this case is different because the DOJ is involved. It's not. We know, as just one recent example, based on the DOJ consent decree in place in Minneapolis, and an ACLU lawsuit against the Minneapolis police department, that (among other things) the DOJ was aware of cops assaulting the press. There was a settlement that the city had to pay, but no one involved was brought up on criminal charges from this though. This is what the signs are pointing towards.

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#152

Post by mcpackieh »

mrguyorama wrote: post #110
mcpackieh wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well we already have laws against mobs violently attacking people. And violation of those laws is a threat to the freedom of the press. Let's consider a hypothetical but plausible example: A billionaire named Elon Bezos is tired of journalists exposing his illegal schemes so he hires the Pinkertons to stalk and harass journalists, dox them and post their personal information on 4chan with claims of those journalist…

That is a crime of harrassment and other "You're being an ass to someone" crimes. A private person cannot violate the freedom of the press because a private person has almost zero restrictions on their speech. THAT IS FREEDOM OF SPEECH, and any attempt to curtail that response is an attempt to stifle their speech!

For the life of me I cannot figure out what you're responding to. Certainly nothing in my posts. Why don't you relax and try reading?

> That is a crime of harrassment and other "You're being an ass to someone" crimes. A private person cannot violate the freedom of the press

A private person can violate the freedom of the press using the crime of harassment! If a private person goes around murdering journalists they don't like, that's an attack on the freedom of the press. How can you possibly be so myopic as to not see this?

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#153

Post by mcpackieh »

mrguyorama wrote: post #109
mcpackieh wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Freedom of the press is not freedom to publish "without retribution", and never has been. It is freedom to publish without _government_ retribution. You're talking about the American First Amendment specifically, not freedom of the press generally. The World Press Freedom Index includes sociocultural context and safety; if journalists are being attacked by mobs of angry citizens that is obviously a problem for the…

ANY "freedom of speech" that curtails the speech of people responding, using their own free speech, to someone saying something, is not freedom of speech, but rather an attempt to silence critics. If you believe in "Freedom to publish without retribution", you believe in "might makes right".

> curtails the speech of people responding

What are you on about? Honestly. Violence and violent intimidation are not free speech, if violence against journalists is coming from any party other than the government, how is that not a threat to free speech simply by virtue of it coming from parties other than the government? Can you answer that without going off on wild tangents?

Reminder that I responded to a claim that only governments can threaten the freedom of the press. Do I need to explain to that non-governments are capable of murder, or do you understand at least this much?

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#154

Post by empath-nirvana »

pessimizer wrote: post #93
empath-nirvana wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Freedom of the press is not freedom to publish "without retribution", and never has been. It is freedom to publish without _government_ retribution. If you publish some awful stuff, other people are allowed to point out that you said awful stuff and there are consequences for that, and that's how it's supposed to work.

You have no legal basis for saying this, because US freedom of the press rules are about prior restraint, and government retribution isn't prior restraint. You also have no philosophical basis for saying this, because nobody put you in charge of defining what freedom of the press means to everyone else, and you've offered no references to people more respected than yourself on the subject. But good luck with a defini…

> Does freedom of the press give the government an obligation to prosecute, or nah?

Yes.

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#155

Post by sanderjd »

dfxm12 wrote: post #151
sanderjd wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your first question. To your second question, no, it's not a last straw situation. I've been outraged by specific things in the past, and I'm sure I will be again in the future. But I'm not outraged by this specific thing, in the present, because all signs point to these people being brought to justice in due time.

I don't understand your first question. You said that the people involved were punished: This isn't an example of law enforcement attacks on the press going unpunished . You then walked back this comment when pressed: The punishment is not a "was", it is a "will be" . I get it, though. Your original comment is not defensible. all signs point to these people being brought to justice in due time What signs? There's a h…

> You said that the people involved were punished: This isn't an example of law enforcement attacks on the press going unpunished.

Where exactly do you see the words "were punished" in that quote from me, or in anything else I've written? It's not there...

Something "going unpunished" means it remains unpunished indefinitely. There are lots of examples of things happening in the past going unpunished. But this is a thing that is happening in the present, which may or may not go unpunished in the fullness of time. But not nearly enough time has passed to say either way.

The signs that justice is likely to be done here is that this created a national outrage, with the perpetrators having only local small town allies, which neither the US DOJ nor even, I suspect, the state of Kansas will find intimidating in the least.

Everything you're saying is totally true for things that don't get broad media attention. My thesis is that this case is different by dint of being featured in the NYTimes and on Good Morning America.

For instance, Derek Chauvin is in jail in very large part because he came to the attention of the Sauron's eye of the national media. This is like that, and it's why I think it's likely these people will face justice.

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#156

Post by dfxm12 »

sanderjd wrote: post #155
dfxm12 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your first question. You said that the people involved were punished: This isn't an example of law enforcement attacks on the press going unpunished . You then walked back this comment when pressed: The punishment is not a "was", it is a "will be" . I get it, though. Your original comment is not defensible. all signs point to these people being brought to justice in due time What signs? There's a h…

> You said that the people involved were punished: This isn't an example of law enforcement attacks on the press going unpunished. Where exactly do you see the words "were punished" in that quote from me, or in anything else I've written? It's not there... Something "going unpunished" means it remains unpunished indefinitely. There are lots of examples of things happening in the past going unpunished. But this is a t…

If you have to wait until the fullness of time to stop playing a semantics game around on what you wrote vs what you meant, then be my guest.

For instance, Derek Chauvin is in jail...

Ok, I'm glad at least one cop who murdered an innocent person is punished. Maybe cops can't get away with literal murder anymore if enough people demand justice. Now, to get back on topic and to reiterate what I had posted before: all the cops that assaulted all the protesters, and press covering the story, in the wake of George Floyd's murder got off without punishment, even with the DOJ's knowledge, pressure from protestors & a lot more media coverage than this story is getting. That is the status quo.

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#157

Post by tehwebguy »

millzlane wrote: post #76
thinkcontext wrote: post #49

On top of the judge signing off on the warrant when this likely contradicted federal law, we have this: > When the newspaper asked for a copy of the probable cause affidavit required by law to issue a search warrant, the district court issued a signed statement saying no such affidavit was on file, the Record reported. Not a lawyer and I know it takes quite a lot for a judge to be disciplined but that would seem to b…

In my probable cause affidavit in Baltimore fabricated by the GTTF, They said they found white powedery residue in my garbage, but noone in the household consumes any while powedery drugs certainly not enough for there to be a garabge bag full of evidence to get a warrant. But somehow it happened in Baltimore too, "The greatest city in America!"[1] [1] https://www.wypr.org/2023-01-23/whats-with-those-the-greates...

Another reason all police support the war on drugs: they can just plant some on you whenever they want to frame you for a felony — or just say they thought you had some to get a free warrant.

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#158

Post by sanderjd »

dfxm12 wrote: post #156
sanderjd wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You said that the people involved were punished: This isn't an example of law enforcement attacks on the press going unpunished. Where exactly do you see the words "were punished" in that quote from me, or in anything else I've written? It's not there... Something "going unpunished" means it remains unpunished indefinitely. There are lots of examples of things happening in the past going unpunished. But this is a t…

If you have to wait until the fullness of time to stop playing a semantics game around on what you wrote vs what you meant, then be my guest. For instance, Derek Chauvin is in jail... Ok, I'm glad at least one cop who murdered an innocent person is punished. Maybe cops can't get away with literal murder anymore if enough people demand justice. Now, to get back on topic and to reiterate what I had posted before: all t…

It's not a semantics game! My only point is that it makes no sense to complain that these people have not yet been punished by the justice system for something they did less than a week ago! Of course they haven't, it takes way more time than that.

Pointing out the difference between things that happened in the past and things that are still developing in the present is not a "semantic game". I don't think anyone besides you is confused by what I'm saying here...

But your other point is a good one. You're right that my "media attention" thing is too narrow. I think another thing that matters is whether there is some broader political debate that they can latch onto. With respect to the protests in 2020, there was a lot of political disagreement about the protests themselves, which (unfortunately) made a lot of people sympathetic to those police officers.

But in this case, there is not any broad political disagreement about whether it's appropriate to intimidate local news outlets in order to cover up your corruption.

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#159

Post by IggleSniggle »

evanelias wrote: post #139
millzlane wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my probable cause affidavit in Baltimore fabricated by the GTTF, They said they found white powedery residue in my garbage, but noone in the household consumes any while powedery drugs certainly not enough for there to be a garabge bag full of evidence to get a warrant. But somehow it happened in Baltimore too, "The greatest city in America!"[1] [1] https://www.wypr.org/2023-01-23/whats-with-those-the-greates...

That's terrible, sorry that this happened to you. At least those GTTF officers got caught eventually. I assume you've read or watched "We Own This City"? I'd be curious about your take on it. Side note but I remember when they first rolled out that Baltimore bench slogan... I vaguely remember some explanations that the previous slogan ("The City that Reads") was also rather "aspirational", given the illiteracy rate.

Baltimore is such an interesting dynamic city. To me, it is (culturally) what NYC was in the 70s and 80s: Gotham City. It's chronically underrated because of its public facade of crime and corruption, but behind that you have incredible art/music/film subcultures, some fantastic educational institutions especially for meds / bioengineering, a solid port, and a vibrant startup culture. I started paying attention because I noticed that so many of the podcasts I listen to, across all domains, come out of Baltimore either from the subject material or from the person writing the story. I wonder if its story will turn.

Re: Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

#160

Post by burnerburnito »

gettodachoppa wrote: post #134
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every one of these turns into a flamewar of cynical "America bad, corruption is the norm, there is no free press, etc." comments.

As a foreigner, if I could, I'd downvote it if only because it's local news being blown up all over HN, presumably because it's a slow news week. I just don't care. This isn't speaking to some trend in America. It's a hamlet's local drama. Do we really need 2 posts a day? Btw, from what I got by glancing past the comments in the original post, whoever runs this newspaper is a total rat. What started all this is the n…

You're calling them "total rats", yet you say that you haven't read the article and only glanced at it. How is that a basis for making such a bold claim?

To quote you further, you claimed they were "snitching" and that "god i hate petty small town people".

Perhaps these could be more valid claims about some truly trivial squabble, but the woman in question has previously been driving while DUI (driving under the influence; usually alcohol in America, since you claim to be a foreigner and may have different legal terminology in your nation), severely endangering the lives of others as is well-established by decades of studies on the increased risks of accidents (especially lethal ones) by drivers who are intoxicated on alcohol.

Moreover, in America DUI laws are (in this writer's opinion) extremely relaxed. One minor DUI with nobody harmed absolutely does not stop you from getting a license -- the penalty for kansas is 30 days minimum and needing to use a special device to test one's breath's alcohol levels before starting their car.

Even if she got a lengthy suspension, which I haven't deeply researched into (though by your own admission, neither did you), she made the choice to endanger others' lives significantly and would have then had potentially up to 15 (or let's say 14, to presuppose a year of suspension) years to attempt to get a valid license, an inexpensive process.

Instead, she kept driving without a license, and with a proven history of making poor decisions where other peoples' safety and rights to life are involved. Might she also have lacked insurance? Then in the event she caused any crashes or accidents, the outcomes could be even harder upon the victim.

Now, some of these issues reflect deep systemic problems with American justice, law, poverty, education, and public transportation / city planning. However, this immediate article and situation is not something so simple or vulgar as "total rat(s)" or "snitching", and I'd even beg the question of if a situation is really "snitching" when it may be actually probing if the police are suddenly complict in ignoring a crime they might be happy to use against someone else once it suits them.

Likewise, I believe you're greatly lowering the quality of dialogue on hackernews by this sort of impulsive response. If I've gotten anything wrong, I'd be happy for you to specify, but what you've written only serves to confuse others about the truth. I may be wrong about such a developing story too, but please consider that I've attempted to broadly make my claims search-able or referencing specific parts of things you or the newspaper have said.

P.S. I'm well aware nobody (else) is likely to read this, but decided I'd spend 20 minutes writing on the subject in case of other readers like myself who tend to go over old hackernews comments looking for insights on events that may have been ignored by corporate or mainstream media reporting.

Or, TL;DR There appears to be nothing of substance to these claims, move along.

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