How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance? • Hacker News Board

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#151

Post by vkou » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:14 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #138

qbasic_forever wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because for this work it's cheaper for the company to hire a new person with a lower starting wage vs. keep employing and paying higher wages to more experienced workers. It's not the worker's fault they can't learn the new tool (they absolutely can learn it). It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else.

> It's capitalism's fault for valuing workers only for the cost of their labor and nothing else. Sigh. The value you're talking about here is the cost of their labour. This is like a business owner saying that employees should value their jobs differently to their salary. You're right in the sense that capitalism is fundamentally "people make agreements and decisions within what's available to them" but what's the ac…

> Monarchy can just also tell you to go die on a field if you don't kill the other king's people.

What makes you think that capitalism won't do the same to you? Capitalist[1] societies engage in pointless, bloody wars all the time.

[1] And communist, and other -ist.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#152

Post by bluGill » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:16 PM UTC

s_dev wrote: post #85

riskable wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fabs need ultra pure water and it's cheaper to recycle the water they use than rely on city water supplies. So they need a ton of water initially but once they're up and running they don't need much water after that. Because of this, even a desert environment like Arizona is fine.

What about the vast energy required by fabs? Do you have a special tax to reinvest and maintain the grid or do they pay the same rates as a normal Arizona grocery store? Texas is hardly a paragon of a stable grid given the blackouts the past few years.

Despite the headlines, Texas has a fairly stable grid. They have work to do, but all grids do. In the end it doesn't matter too much as you cannot make a grid stable enough to rely on without backup power onsite and once you have that you can ride out most unstable events.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#153

Post by Dork1234 » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:16 PM UTC

My take is it not the skill or even the cost of labor. The biggest issues is it is easier to find skilled people in Asia willing to work late and long hours to keep the machines running 24/7. The only way to make money is to keep these machines running as close to 100% efficiency 24/7. It isn't just one company, it is the whole chain of suppliers/manufactures with fast turn around time that gives Asia a upper hand.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#154

Post by Eji1700 » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:27 PM UTC

floor_ wrote: post #132

This all feels like a prelude to a World War.

Eh. It's more a correction caused by over globalization.

Too many theorists decided to claim that "no one would ever risk their economy!" and since it made lines go up globally everyone bought in. Then Russia invaded Ukraine and suddenly the hawks who'd been screaming about supply lines and logistics for years were taken more seriously.

You can't simultaneously threaten military/economic action and also rely on them for major resources. Not to mention how countries like China have essentially warped the market for goods around their artificially cheap labor, and the threat of losing that plus one of the largest markets in the world is severe.

Now granted, we could all still wind up in world war, but to me it looks like the standard stuff.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#155

Post by serjester » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:30 PM UTC

quantumwannabe wrote: post #96

jagged-chisel wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this perhaps just sour grapes from TSMC because they actually need to train the new workforce?

The hilarious thing is that when TSMC was founded they had to train EVERYONE . Taiwan had zero chip fabrication talent. All of the specialists at the time, even the founder of TSMC, were in the US. For them to complain that it's impossible to train a workforce is laughable and is most likely just racism/nationalism.

To be fair the expertise needed to produce chips in 1987 and 2023 is radically different.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#156

Post by Terr_ » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #108

bagacrap wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't you learn the next tool? Everyone in a tech field has to retain the ability to learn new things over time. AI might not take our jobs but it will likely change them. I guess it sucks if you have a fear of learning. Admittedly, at first learning a new thing can be kind of uncomfortable, like getting into a cold swimming pool. But once you get over the initial shock and start moving around, it's not so bad.

Because the business needs you to keep putting out fires in the old tool while your younger, cheaper replacement trains on the new tool!

"What happens when we need more workers who know the new tool? Shouldn't we invest in training?"

"No, we'll hire them away from our competitors. Let one of them invest in training."

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#157

Post by nebalee » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:37 PM UTC

LudwigNagasena wrote: post #142

KennyBlanken wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A commitment that apparently does not include: - treating anyone who isn't "white enough" with dignity and without extreme suspicion of being in the country illegally. Driving in texas and not white enough? You might end up in jail if you don't have sufficient proof on you that you're not "an illegal" - a reliable power grid, because they petulantly do not want to have to follow federal regulations in how they run sa…

It’s a law in many countries that you have to carry your ID with you, eg Germany. The police may do random check in high risk areas. Do you think Germany treats its citizens without dignity?

You have to own an ID document (Pass or Personalausweis) in Germany, but you don't have to carry it with you.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#158

Post by Terr_ » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:38 PM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #125

bob1029 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking about moving out to that area. Building these fabs will do amazing things for the local community & economy. It is also likely the most resilient part of the TX power grid...

"the most resilient part of TX power grid" A roommate of mine once quipped on something: 'that's like saying my crap smells better than yours'. Feel free to correct me, I'm not an expert, but Texas runs its own state-only independent grid, it got completely pants in the ice storm a few years ago, and at the time a lot of articles said the Texas grid is fundamentally less resilient that other power companies. Is any o…

> it got completely pants in the ice storm a few years ago

Right, in 2021... and in 2011, and in 2003, and in 1989... :p

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#159

Post by bee_rider » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

asow92 wrote: post #121

ethbr0 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers dancing around the fundamental constraints of reality deserve a bit more respect than folks complaining about learning the latest JS-of-the-month, all of which follow basic comp sci patterns.

You talk as if they're smart enough to learn something new. They're either smart or they're not. Which one is it?

They are “smart enough” to have learned the previous generation of tools while in school or in the early parts of their careers (where expectations are lower), and not “smart enough” to learn the next generation of tools while also doing their full time jobs.

So, ok, but anyone thinking about entering the field can see that they’ll be left in a lurch when they hit mid career.

We’ve already run this experiment for a generation or two; anyone smart enough to finish an engineering degree can just go do a programming career afterwards, where the work and career advancement is easier. Now we have imported chips and a million JavaScript frameworks.

Re: How real is America’s chipmaking renaissance?

#160

Post by red-iron-pine » Tue, Aug 08, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

jjoonathan wrote: post #150

CamperBob2 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there anything a union can't help with, in your estimation?

Plenty. U**ons solve one problem only: when value created is high but leverage (=pay) is low. The fact that this problem pops up all over the damn place should tell you something about our relationship to u**ons.

it's not just low pay.

children used to work 10 hours a day and lose hands in machinery. hell, kids are dying in factories now, and the rules just keep getting rolled back further.

miners get black lung or asbestos exposure.

dudes boiled alive in machinery that didn't have fail safes.

company towns that only paid in scrip and then charged you 3x the price of regular goods.

people had to fight and die for an 8 hour workday.

the bourgeoisie programmer types who've never had to work actually dangerous jobs tend to forget just how incredibly brutal working conditions used to be.