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Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

nytimes.com

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Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#151

Post by astine »

fallentimes wrote: post #142
astine wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. Very true. The dangers many Americans face as a result of all this are real, as are the hardships that prompted folks to adopt these b…

American hardships are nothing compared to third world countries' hardships. That's why I donate my money to the real poor (the people who don't know if they're going to be alive on a day to day basis) not the American poor. Yeah lots of people have tough lives here, but they're still in the top 5% of the world's population.

Yeah lots of people have tough lives here, but they're still in the top 5% of the world's population.

Or, we could say: "Yeah people here are in the top 5% of the world's population, but many people still do have tough lives."

You seem to have missed my point. This discussion is not about the rest of the world but about the situation regarding the 'Big 3,' the UAW, and the impending bailout for the American auto industry. When discussing such things, you deal with people who are effected by them. As far as I know, most of the third world will not be greatly affected by the auto bailout.

More to the point, I'm not advocating welfare. I'm merely intimating that I understand that others can experience hardship, but that it's not right to use that as an excuse to perpetuate bad policies.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#152

Post by fallentimes »

astine wrote: post #151
fallentimes wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American hardships are nothing compared to third world countries' hardships. That's why I donate my money to the real poor (the people who don't know if they're going to be alive on a day to day basis) not the American poor. Yeah lots of people have tough lives here, but they're still in the top 5% of the world's population.

Yeah lots of people have tough lives here, but they're still in the top 5% of the world's population. Or, we could say: "Yeah people here are in the top 5% of the world's population, but many people still do have tough lives." You seem to have missed my point. This discussion is not about the rest of the world but about the situation regarding the 'Big 3,' the UAW, and the impending bailout for the American auto indu…

The discussion (not between you and I) but on the rest of the thread reeks of self entitlement and a lack of accountability. My comment wasn't aimed just at your point, but rather the people who think they're entitled to things they haven't earned and who fail to keep things in perspective when facing challenges.

I agree that the current Mother Government system is completely fucked, however. The bailout, because of financial markets, microloans, commercial paper, free markets and trade will affect almost every one. Orders of magnitude will vary.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#153

Post by turkishrevenge »

mdasen wrote: post #82
blackguardx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post smacks of jealousy. What is wrong with zero deductible healthcare? I don't fault someone for trying to climb society's ladder. I want everyone in America to be able to earn a living wage. Being in a union doesn't make one lazy or overpaid. How do you over pay someone anyway? Who deems what a job is worth to society? It is very unfortunate that the big three made the agreements they did, but they made them.…

Interesting question: who deems what a job is worth to society? Many things: First, we all do. As a simplistic example, would you hire me at $50/hour to patrol the front of your house for squirrels? No. No matter how diligent or hard-working I was, that function is not worth $50/hr to you. In fact, it may be worth nothing at all. A little less simplistic: would you keep me on fulltime staff to clean your apartment or…

"If your company produces 1 car for every 50 hours of labor and another company produces 1 car for every 25 hours of labor, your labor isn't worth as much. If I can automate processes that save time, my labor becomes worth more and yours less."

If you automate a process, your labor is worth less. That's the point of automating a manual process--it's necessary to produce competitive advantage. Simultaneously, it allows a manufacturer to produce more goods, while replacing skilled workers who were necessary to produce the commodity manually, with less skilled or unskilled workers.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#154

Post by fallentimes »

blurry wrote: post #143
mchristoff wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family di…

You know what disgusts me ? Your complete blindness to how good your father had it. As a not-so-recent immigrant to the US, I've found it laughably easy to have a good life here. I am not talking about myself since I came at 25 and spoke enough English to get by. I am talking older relatives and their friends, people well into their 50's who did not speak a word of English. There is an absolute wealth of opportunitie…

Best comment on the thread. Thanks for injecting some much needed perspective. I'd venture to say that 99% of the people that post on HN (this obviously includes me) live like relative Kings.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#155

Post by fallentimes »

crabapple wrote: post #66
patio11 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably, he mean that the NYT is a floundering company which has been devastated by a refusal to adapt to new business realities over the last decade. 5 years ago their stock was trading at $47. Now it is at $6. http://finance.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:NYT (For what it's worth, if they collapse I wouldn't bail them out, either.)

the nytimes isn't asking the government to deliver their papers.

I think a more likely result is the dissolving of their print publication or converting to a once per week format. Could you imagine telling someone this fifteen years ago? Crazy.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#156

Post by tdavis »

blurry wrote: post #143
mchristoff wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it really disgusts me that this comment has been upmodded so much. it reeks of overgeneralization, ignorance, and hyperbole. it's very easy to sit on your high horse and talk about hypothetical denny's waitresses, but a little harder when this actually effects you and your loved ones. my father worked his ass off for GM for more than 25 years, not to mention driving 100 miles each way for the last 10 so his family di…

You know what disgusts me ? Your complete blindness to how good your father had it. As a not-so-recent immigrant to the US, I've found it laughably easy to have a good life here. I am not talking about myself since I came at 25 and spoke enough English to get by. I am talking older relatives and their friends, people well into their 50's who did not speak a word of English. There is an absolute wealth of opportunitie…

Hear, hear. I was going to post something like this because I have lived among people in third-world countries who actually have it hard (total understatement), but it's better that it came from someone with immediate family who lived it.

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#157

Post by LukeG »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #121
mchristoff wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

huh?? in the last 15 years gm has closed dozens of plants. yes, certainly the union fought to get the best deal collectively for their workers, but you have to have rocks in your head if you think people like my father felt entitled. they felt lucky to have a job. as for finding another job... you highlight my point! it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified…

"it's pretty fucking difficult to find another job when after 20 years the only thing you're qualified to do is work in a general motors factory" I've always had a problem with this argument. If you work 40 hours a week, you've easily got time in 20 years to do anything you'd like to do -- including becoming a brain surgeon. I'm honestly not trying to be cold about it, but the rest of us live in a world, especially i…

Lots of great comments here, but not this one: you cannot work 40 hrs/week, have a family, and become a brain surgeon in your spare time. I have 5 doctors in my immediate family and know a bunch more in medical school, and you have no idea what you're talking about.

That being said, I'm with you about needing to learn new skills. The days of the company man are over, and in our new world you need to have a set of skills and competencies that you can take where needed. But can you imagine how hard and scary it would be for someone who has worked in the same job for 40 years to try and do something new?

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#158

Post by astine »

fallentimes wrote: post #152
astine wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah lots of people have tough lives here, but they're still in the top 5% of the world's population. Or, we could say: "Yeah people here are in the top 5% of the world's population, but many people still do have tough lives." You seem to have missed my point. This discussion is not about the rest of the world but about the situation regarding the 'Big 3,' the UAW, and the impending bailout for the American auto indu…

The discussion (not between you and I) but on the rest of the thread reeks of self entitlement and a lack of accountability. My comment wasn't aimed just at your point, but rather the people who think they're entitled to things they haven't earned and who fail to keep things in perspective when facing challenges. I agree that the current Mother Government system is completely fucked, however. The bailout, because of…

LOL, you live in America. Of course people feel entitled; they're educated that way. At least it's not Sweden.

Anyway, the bailout most directly affects the Us Auto Industry and it's workers, So I think it makes sense to consider their needs first.

Your words are like my mother telling me I should eat my toast because there are starving children in China. Sure I should be grateful to have food to eat, but what does this have to do with the Chinese? Is this their toast? Can we give it to them?

It's one thing to tell folks that they have it good and they should stop complaining; It's another to do so and then turn around and spend the money that they were demanding on a private jet or new summer home. Right or wrong, that's how auto-workers see it and unless you really are worse off than they are, you should at least show that you emphasize with their condition before telling them what to do. Otherwise, you'll just reinforce that sense of entitlement.

My point is this: "I understand, but you'll have to suck it up." goes further than "Suck it up."

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#159

Post by fallentimes »

astine wrote: post #158
fallentimes wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The discussion (not between you and I) but on the rest of the thread reeks of self entitlement and a lack of accountability. My comment wasn't aimed just at your point, but rather the people who think they're entitled to things they haven't earned and who fail to keep things in perspective when facing challenges. I agree that the current Mother Government system is completely fucked, however. The bailout, because of…

LOL, you live in America. Of course people feel entitled; they're educated that way. At least it's not Sweden. Anyway, the bailout most directly affects the Us Auto Industry and it's workers, So I think it makes sense to consider their needs first. Your words are like my mother telling me I should eat my toast because there are starving children in China. Sure I should be grateful to have food to eat, but what does t…

My words would only be like that if you thought you were entitled to your toast every single day of your life. ;)

Re: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt

#160

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

dionidium wrote: post #36
fallentimes wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound crass, but companies who knowingly and actively pay people to do nothing on a perpetual basis deserve to die: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179....

We can probably all agree that's it's silly to require that workers play dress-up and come to a non-existent job every morning. But, assuming that requirement were dropped, you haven't exactly explained why it was wrong of the workers to ask for a piece of the (extraordinarily high [0]) earnings the company enjoyed at that time, or why it was wrong of the company to pay it. Am I wrong to assume that the company thoug…

What should the union have done? Accept less than they could negotiate for?

Sometimes it makes sense to accept less than you can negotiate for: (a) you don't want to kill the goose laying the golden eggs and (b) that overly hard negotiation can mean you're walking around with an "Outsource Me" target on your back. Get what you want when you can get it, but remain aware of the consequences.

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