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At this company, we are family

pboyd.io

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Re: At this company, we are family

#151

Post by BizarroLand »

hirako2000 wrote: post #80
Arisaka1 wrote: post #51

My first job was with a "we are a family" company, they used stupid names for the employees internally but also in the job post, together with an emoji spam that couldn't say "how you do fellow kids?" any harder, ask to "see yourself like an entrepreneur" and "be the leader of your own ideas" obviously taking far less than the actual company owners. After a while I had to resign due to mental health problem manifesti…

Some employers like to "adopt" candidates and brainwash them to them bond to the organisation. Of course that's just smoke and as time goes it takes a toll on mental health, way before things have become clear that your only family is your kin.

Well, times have changed, and vampires have changed too.

Instead of ravenously draining the life from your body and swallowing your final screams like pez, we've taken a more egalitarian approach of slowly crushing the life out of thousands of people simultaneously, but also giving them time to recover so we can get as much delicious pain juice as possible.

Re: At this company, we are family

#152

Post by blackbeans »

gonehome wrote: post #23
jylam wrote: post #16

I especially like the very American "I ask that you refrain from discussing your termination with any social contacts made through your membership in the family [...] Failure to comply may result in your severance being terminated early or withheld entirely." In (most of ?) Europe, this severance is law and not debatable (as discovered by Musk recently), so this sentence would be outright illegal. You can talk about…

Independent of the tongue-in-cheek joke of this post, software salaries in the US are triple (or more) than those in Europe, I'd rather keep the tradeoffs we have even if that means there are downsides - the upsides are worth it. I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there and the salaries are low, hiring is risky when firing is hard.

It depends. Yes, the salaries are lower, but so are the expenses on average. The fringe benefits are usually good. There's a legal minimum amount of paid holiday days, in my country the minimum is 20/year but some unions have close to 40. There's also a legal maximum amount of allowed overtime, the employer pays a part of the employee's pension in my country et cetera.

It's probably true that it's easier to upscale a company in the US. The hire and fire strategy wouldn't work here as it would only attract poorly educated people that are willing to take any job. It may be a cultural difference, but most middle class people like to have financial stability here, even if payment is lower in that case.

I think that for software companies, the history of computers plays a big role as well. US has always been at the forefront when it comes to hardware, (military) investments and research of integrated circuits and computers, which led to big companies like IBM and subsequently Silicon Valley companies like Apple and MS. I think it may not be the best example because there isn't really any other country or continent that equals the US here, regardless of wages and labor rules.

Re: At this company, we are family

#153

Post by tambourine_man »

Firaxus wrote: post #58
tambourine_man wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an often repeated mantra: “sure you'll lose some rights, but it will be way easier to find higher paying jobs in a more dynamic market”. I've lived in two countries that went through this transition in labor laws to follow the neoliberal playbook. Guess what happened. See also “less regulation will mean more agile and competitive market which will auto regulate itself”, etc.

Can you elaborate further on the points of what happened, the countries themselves, and the final quote?

Retirement age increase, easier/cheaper to fire employees, relaxed definitions of extra-time, the usual.

We ended up with a recession and less rights.

Don’t want to reveal the countries, but it’s a common tale.

Re: At this company, we are family

#154

Post by e_i_pi_2 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #129

I have seen reports of how things go in "old money" families. It doesn't look at all like the idea we make of families. They have access to vast amounts of resources, but family members don't have free access, far from it. There is council that decides how the funds are allocated, and when family members need some, they need to pitch how they are going to use it, and the expected returns. And if some family members a…

At that point I'd think the general opinion is that they're operating as a company _instead of_ a family. Pitching investment ideas and getting cut off from support doesn't sound like a family. I think this is just something you kinda need to do with that much wealth, but I don't think it's an example of how any average family operates

Re: At this company, we are family

#155

Post by gonehome »

manuelmoreale wrote: post #91
gonehome wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independent of the tongue-in-cheek joke of this post, software salaries in the US are triple (or more) than those in Europe, I'd rather keep the tradeoffs we have even if that means there are downsides - the upsides are worth it. I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there and the salaries are low, hiring is risky when firing is hard.

> I suspect the labor protections in Europe are part of the reason there aren't many billion dollar software companies there Care to elaborate on why this is a bad thing? Also, software salaries are not all salaries and are probably not all that representative to the bigger picture.

Growth makes people rich, billion dollar companies create a lot of wealth and the US is a very rich country in part because of this.

Some employees that capture a piece of that wealth funnel it back into more startups/growth (Silicon Valley) creating more jobs, more growth and more wealth (not to mention whatever the new startup is doing is usually creating a new thing people want too).

Software salaries are extremely high, but software companies in the US pay a lot in non software roles too.

On net you end up way in a way richer society that operates this way vs. one that incentivizes not operating this way.

That doesn't mean there should be zero protections from abuse, but it's important to be cautious about the net effect of these sorts of regulations and how you can end up trapped in a worse local maximum because of them.

In a society where you can take bigger risks, make bigger bets, you can get a lot bigger wins at scale. I think that's a good/important thing.

Re: At this company, we are family

#156

Post by jedberg »

This is why I always liked Netflix's outlook (both stated and practiced):

We are a sports team, not a family. Perform well and you will be paid well, perform poorly and you will get a nice check to go elsewhere. And sometimes you might perform really well but we just don't need someone with your skills anymore, so we'll still give you nice check to go elsewhere, and that isn't a reflection on your abilities.

Re: At this company, we are family

#157

Post by conductr »

davidw wrote: post #34
intothemild wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's autistic, these kinds of companies are very difficult for me. Usually the "we're family" companies are also the "let's have a social event constantly", or return to the office days are also just filled with socializing. I get it.. some people really enjoy that, but that's not everyone. It feels like it's by design to exclude other kinds of people who don't enjoy a hyper social environment.

This is why the interview process should include 'culture fit' so that it can weed out people who would be good at getting the work done but not fun for the bros to hang out and drink beer with.

They usually do. Even if you don't realize it, you're being sized up in an interview and common feedback is "I can't see myself wanting to grab a beer with him". I actually had a conversation yesterday about it with someone I interviewed and the hiring manager that reports to me. I like the person, he said the comment about not sure about getting beers with the candidate. I told him to focus on the other 90 days a quarter when there are no beers.

Re: At this company, we are family

#158

Post by e_i_pi_2 »

xyzelement wrote: post #136
bluefishinit wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Family" doesn't mean employing you past the point it makes sense Actually family does mean that, literally. It makes absolutely no sense to use this term in a business context.

Apologies if I didn't make this super clear. I agree that the "family" metaphor breaks down around termination of employment (whether initiated by employee or employer) What I was trying to say in the line you quoted, that IN THE WORK CONTEXT nobody uses family to imply permanent employment - it's strictly about how you are with each other while there. Which is still a big deal.

I'd agree that "family" implies you're going to put the relationship itself over most rational reasons, and businesses can't do that. If you want to say they're family then the business should also plan for a pension that all employees get or something similar - otherwise it's just a tactic to manipulate people

Of course you treat family members well when they "deliver" for you, the real part is when they can't deliver and you still support them.

Re: At this company, we are family

#159

Post by ddq »

TheRealPomax wrote: post #131
ddq wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.nlrb.gov/about-nlrb/rights-we-protect/your-right...

That's the best part! They don't have to fire you with a reason, at-will employment means they can just fire you and you're going to have to prove in court it could only have been because you were talking about your salary. Good luck! You just show up to the office, your fob doesn't work, and security walks out to inform you that you don't work here anymore and to expect an email from HR. (Will a good company do this…

"Companies are 100% allowed to" break the National Labor Relations Act because you have moved the goalposts to having to win in court? I don't believe you were previously aware of the NLRA or have any legal insight of value.

Re: At this company, we are family

#160

Post by vore »

cassepipe wrote: post #120
vore wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It makes no sense to put the blame on individuals like this. I am no fan of the lack of workers' rights in the US, but the holier-than-thou European smugness is really not appreciated, given how little recourse people have in the American system.

I don't think the "holier-than-thou European smugness" is the reason why people lack workers' rights in the US. Most americans have never talked to a European person. But that certainly is the narrative some billionaire backed media is pushing. You only have the recourses you fought for. Having a culture where an organized workforce is not seen as rampant bolshevism would be a good start.

I didn't say European attitudes were responsible for workers' rights in the US being bad: that would be a hell of a cause. It's just extremely tiring when Europeans come in to flex their workers' rights super smugly like this <3 – yes, we know it's bad, we don't need someone to come rub it in every time.
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