Web Environment Integrity API Proposal • Hacker News Board

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#151

Post by 20after4 » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

wmf wrote: post #127

apostacy wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at it in terms of leverage and market-share is a huge mistake that Mozilla keeps making. Mozilla doesn't have a platform like Google does. What exactly is Mozilla even competing for? Popularity? They should hunker down and make the best browser they can, implementing their best web. It worked 20 years ago, and in many ways the circumstances are the same. We have tech monopolies proposing ludicrous "content se…

What exactly is Mozilla even competing for? Popularity? Mozilla's revenue is proportional to usage so they need enough users to cover their development costs.

If only the wikimedia foundation would fork firefox, then the open web might have a chance.

Wikimedia is honestly the only organization with the right ideology, the right business model, and enough money to do something like this sustainably.

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#152

Post by chrisco255 » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:32 PM UTC

saurik wrote: post #5

This is pretty much the inevitable end-game of the web, in no small part funded by ad-based business models (as the analog gap pretty much destroys most attempts to use this stuff to do copy protection) and enabled by developers who have insisted we shove as much difficult-to-implement functionality (by which I am talking about CSS complex stuff, not powerful-but-easy-to-code APIs for OS-level access) into the browse…

Do you have a quote from Eich saying that because you've provided no source.

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#153

Post by charcircuit » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:35 PM UTC

jabbany wrote: post #126

freeone3000 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, we’ll also have to extract the key from chrome. It’s no worse than WideVine.

Has that been extracted already? I have to admit I'm behind on the current state of browser DRM... Also I wonder if in the future this would require attestation of the entire chain: secure UEFI validated by key burned in CPU, validates secure boot os that prevents "hacking tools", which validates secure Chrome, which attests secure websites... Truly royally screwed at that point...

The current state of DRM is that you have to find a hardware vulnerability in order to extract a certificate. With this you can now decrypt DRM content, but you have to be careful not to get that key blacklisted.

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#154

Post by signed_keys » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:40 PM UTC

Please drink a verification can to continue.

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#155

Post by stainablesteel » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #72

It's time to break Google up. They're the AT&T and Standard Oil of our generation. Make Ads, YouTube, Search, Cloud, Chrome, etc. all independent companies. Demand that antitrust regulators do their damn jobs for a change.

counterargument: let's say the us gets in a real war with china, a massive conglomerate like google would probably make massive contributions to cyber/technological warfare that the individual pieces would have a hard time doing

i agree they should be broken up, but it might be the wrong time for it.

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#156

Post by chrisco255 » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:44 PM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #64

caesil wrote: post #9

Whether you like it or not (and I certainly don't), you've gotta sort of admire the sheer vision of a fifteen-year project to build a browser so good it comes to monopolize the industry, all because you've had the foresight to realize that monopoly will be crucial to securing your position as the adtech hegemon. An underrated masterpiece of evil genius.

And tech people fell for it hook, line, and sinker. It's completely and utterly irrelevant that Chromium is open source, because the web is a protocol, and having the source for an implementation of the protocol doesn't matter in the least when you don't control the protocol. You can't just fork Chromium and remove a feature, because websites expect the feature, and your browser won't work on them. You can't just for…

> You can't just fork Chromium and add a feature

Of course you can. Microsoft's Edge and Brave already add proprietary features like AI and reader mode, tab groups, video calling, crypto wallet etc.

Brave could add a custom CSS or HTML feature. Hell that was the status quo we came from ten years ago when each vendor had their own feature flags and implementation for WebRTC and proprietary video codecs, etc.

Brave already explicitly removes ads and blocks all kinds of things websites expect to work on Chrome.

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#157

Post by blibble » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:46 PM UTC

jbk wrote: post #65

quenix wrote: post #59

What's strange to me is that the main author of the spec -- Ben Wiser -- seems to be against closed, wall-garden paradigms as he has written in a blog post "I just spent £700 to have my own app on my iPhone" [1]. In the post, he laments the state of the App Store monopoly on iOS and ponders returning to Android for the app installation freedom. How can he reconciliate these views with this spec, which he is the main…

> How can this view be with this spec, which he is the main author of? Surely Ben sees the parallels? It can be reconciled with love for money and total lack of moral fiber. Aka « I don’t give a shit about my actions destroying every one, as long as I go get paid »

it's exactly the same as the AI bros

as long as they get their $1280 bonus they don't care

even if they're destroying their future employment prospects

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#158

Post by ixfo » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:46 PM UTC

spystath wrote: post #61

pmlnr wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's irrelevant and we are an irrelevant minority. Heh. I was there when it was IE6, and people said the same.

I was there too, in the 1.0 days, and still am. But these days are gone, Firefox is not coming back. Back then Firefox was immensely better than IE. As long as the other alternatives are just as good, there is no reason for the mythical "average user" to change over. Why bother if you can do everything in Chrome? We may understand the differences, ideological or technical, but good luck explaining that out there. The…

"You can use adblock" is a pretty chunky benefit over Chrome

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#159

Post by chrisco255 » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:47 PM UTC

kibwen wrote: post #72

It's time to break Google up. They're the AT&T and Standard Oil of our generation. Make Ads, YouTube, Search, Cloud, Chrome, etc. all independent companies. Demand that antitrust regulators do their damn jobs for a change.

Only if you throw Apple, Microsoft and Meta into the grinder as well. Our regulators are fully captured and have been for some time.

Re: Web Environment Integrity API Proposal

#160

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 21, 2023, 10:48 PM UTC

stainablesteel wrote: post #155

kibwen wrote: post #72

It's time to break Google up. They're the AT&T and Standard Oil of our generation. Make Ads, YouTube, Search, Cloud, Chrome, etc. all independent companies. Demand that antitrust regulators do their damn jobs for a change.

counterargument: let's say the us gets in a real war with china, a massive conglomerate like google would probably make massive contributions to cyber/technological warfare that the individual pieces would have a hard time doing i agree they should be broken up, but it might be the wrong time for it.

[deleted]