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Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

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Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#151

Post by JustBreath »

ironmagma wrote: post #145
JustBreath wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are doing something that has inherent value — extracting gold from a mine, performing music, working a factory line — you are the top of funnel for value creation. The standard "how come patrons at a bar pay $10 for a drink but I only make $15 / hour when I serve twenty drinks an hour" argument. The answer of course is because you didn't create the bar, you didn't secure all the necessary supplies and amenit…

> if the bar loses money each month you're still owed a paycheck Only until the bar stops existing. You're on the hook for business continuity whether you're the employer or the employee. Lex Fridman and Richard Wolff discussed this: https://youtu.be/o0Bi-q89j5Y?t=2984 Co-ops are indeed the closest thing we have to escaping capitalism in America. However they don't grow very quickly if at all, for the very reason tha…

> Only until the bar stops existing.

At which point you are STILL not responsible for any liability. For example if the bar gets sued, you don't lose your home, car, etc...

And in most countries, would receive unemployment that was at least partially paid for by the business in advance.

Notice again though - just like the gold mine - without the infrastructure you can't extract any value at all from your ability to pour drinks.

Wolff is about as bad faith as actors get.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#152

Post by ironmagma »

JustBreath wrote: post #151
ironmagma wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the bar loses money each month you're still owed a paycheck Only until the bar stops existing. You're on the hook for business continuity whether you're the employer or the employee. Lex Fridman and Richard Wolff discussed this: https://youtu.be/o0Bi-q89j5Y?t=2984 Co-ops are indeed the closest thing we have to escaping capitalism in America. However they don't grow very quickly if at all, for the very reason tha…

> Only until the bar stops existing. At which point you are STILL not responsible for any liability. For example if the bar gets sued, you don't lose your home, car, etc... And in most countries, would receive unemployment that was at least partially paid for by the business in advance. Notice again though - just like the gold mine - without the infrastructure you can't extract any value at all from your ability to p…

> you are STILL not responsible for any liability [...] you don't lose your home, car, etc

Uh, you lose your car and home when you can't pay for it due to the bar stopping existing. So you are liable in the sense that your entire income disappears due to this event. It takes a certain kind of boneheadedness to not see this.

> without the infrastructure you can't extract any value at all

I'm not sure what your point here is, all you've done is point out the obvious reason this system can even exist in the first place. Congratulations? If it weren't the case, people would just work and get the money directly and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I'll just ignore your baseless/citationless assertion at the end there.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#153

Post by ksaj »

nfriedly wrote: post #124
rurp wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the current crop of AI at least, the upside will almost entirely be captured by a handful of rich elites who will gain even more leverage over workers. Virtually no business owner pays someone well for any reason other than they have to in order to make more money themselves. If LLMs don't flame out it will be like the dawn of offshoring except wider scale and without the upside of poor people in other countries…

> offshoring I wonder if we'll reach the point where "AI" ends up with the same negative connotation as "Made in China".

I think when it comes to music, it very much has that negative connotation already. It definitely has all sorts of negative connotation when it comes to visual art.

Paul McCartney has had to repeatedly point out that the new song they are producing is John Lennon's real voice, and AI was only used to separate and clean the tracks up.

Even still, there are real musicians out there that will learn how to use AI to generate musical ideas that are new and fresh. They'll ironically have to be in the closet about it, lest people just assume the musician didn't do anything beyond prompting for musical output.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#154

Post by ironmagma »

somsak2 wrote: post #150
ironmagma wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to think that. But when you think more about what value is, how it’s created and how we extract it to pay our insane salaries, it becomes less surprising and more sad.

our salaries are not insane given how much value is created. the amount that is captured by peak capitalists is insane. ultimately you need to get away from being reliant on a salary and become a capitalist yourself. otherwise you're just one of billions that are a few bad breaks away from starvation.

They are insane compared to the global average. One person does not actually create this much value. What happens (in the case of tech) is that corporations in aggregate create the value due to automation, but then they're very inefficient at not burning out their employees so they end up spending a ton on retention.

You assume I'm not a capitalist. When did I say I wasn't?

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#155

Post by mahathu »

sezycei wrote: post #110
mahathu wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What scares me is that there are moral fashions too. They're just as arbitrary, and just as invisible to most people. But they're much more dangerous. Fashion is mistaken for good design; moral fashion is mistaken for good. What dog whistling drivel. That dude's trying so hard to use fancy words and walls of texts to defend his racist views without stating them outright. This is coming from a person who previously…

What's the source on that quote? I searched it and this thread is the only result. Edit: I found the context around it, at least. Seems perfectly reasonable. [1] "Recently Inc published an interview in which I said we'd noticed a correlation between founders having very strong foreign accents and their companies doing badly. Some interpreted this statement as xenophobic, or even racist—as if I'd said that having a fo…

https://www.inc.com/magazine/201309/issie-lapowsky/how-paul-...

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#156

Post by pdntspa »

qeternity wrote: post #131
pdntspa wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Content writing and concept artists come to mind, I've heard commercial art is getting decimated. The trucking industry is dumping tons of $$$ into automated AI trucking. Tech companies are experimenting with drone delivery instead of hiring drivers. Rideshares experimenting with self-driving taxis. The list goes on. More locally, the local McDonalds recently remodeled, reducing the customer counter to something like…

> Content writing and concept artists come to mind, I've heard commercial art is getting decimated. Who? Be specific. This displacement is happening rapidly, it should be easy to point out. > The trucking industry is dumping tons of $$$ into automated AI trucking. Tech companies are experimenting with drone delivery instead of hiring drivers. Rideshares experimenting with self-driving taxis. The list goes on. How man…

> Who? Be specific. This displacement is happening rapidly, it should be easy to point out.

I just freakin said who. That is very specific. What are you looking for me to name Jessica, former content lead at AcmeCorp?

> How many truck drivers have been laid off from this technology which hasn't been deployed widely / left the experimentation phase?

None, yet.

But you are missing my point. This stuff is beginning to happen. Much has yet to happen. You are betting that it won't happen, and I am saying you are wrong. Very little of this will empower people where they are, at the lowest rungs of various corporate ladders. But it will empower their taskmasters, who will happily shed them with the same bullshit excuses they've always given: "Not my problem" and "Sorry, it's just business."

Since you're so damn optimistic about the future, what are these jobs that these people will be retraining to? That don't exist yet. Please share just a little bit of your visionary insight.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#157

Post by sexy_seedbox »

sillysaurusx wrote: post #2

This is in fact a precise definition of AGI, by the way. It’s the only true test. If your AI can make money via mturk, you’re on the right path. Superintelligence is when you can make all the money because all the problems are solvable. Right now only some are.

Why is making money the end goal? When everyone, rich or poor, can use the same tools and make more or the less the same amount of money, then what's the point of a monetary system?

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#158

Post by qeternity »

pdntspa wrote: post #156
qeternity wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Content writing and concept artists come to mind, I've heard commercial art is getting decimated. Who? Be specific. This displacement is happening rapidly, it should be easy to point out. > The trucking industry is dumping tons of $$$ into automated AI trucking. Tech companies are experimenting with drone delivery instead of hiring drivers. Rideshares experimenting with self-driving taxis. The list goes on. How man…

> Who? Be specific. This displacement is happening rapidly, it should be easy to point out. I just freakin said who. That is very specific. What are you looking for me to name Jessica, former content lead at AcmeCorp? > How many truck drivers have been laid off from this technology which hasn't been deployed widely / left the experimentation phase? None, yet. But you are missing my point. This stuff is beginning to h…

> I just freakin said who. That is very specific. What are you looking for me to name Jessica, former content lead at AcmeCorp?

How about a company or an article?

> But you are missing my point. This stuff is beginning to happen.

I'm not, you're missing mine. You believe they are beginning to happen. But you tell me they haven't happened yet. There is nothing substantive to justify this fear. History certainly doesn't. That's my point.

> Since you're so damn optimistic about the future, what are these jobs that these people will be retraining to? That don't exist yet.

Imagine that, the future creating new jobs for people. Not as if that has ever happened before. We're all still toiling in the fields aren't we.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#159

Post by qeternity »

leshow wrote: post #144
qeternity wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Content writing and concept artists come to mind, I've heard commercial art is getting decimated. Who? Be specific. This displacement is happening rapidly, it should be easy to point out. > The trucking industry is dumping tons of $$$ into automated AI trucking. Tech companies are experimenting with drone delivery instead of hiring drivers. Rideshares experimenting with self-driving taxis. The list goes on. How man…

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/06/02/ai-taki... AI will take some jobs, but there is another risk. It's far more likely that they "de-skill" a certain aspect of work so it becomes less creative and more mundane, more easily replaceable. The goal is to turn creative work into something like a position on an assembly line. The problem isn't technology, it's in who it benefits. Productivity gains could b…

> We could all get more time off, for example.

The average person active on HN could do this. They could move somewhere with extremely low cost of living and work a remote job. But almost nobody does this. Instead people choose to live in incredibly high cost areas at well paid jobs, chasing ever higher quality of life.

It's not some boogeyman forcing this. It's just human nature.

Re: Mechanical Turk workers are using AI to automate being human

#160

Post by NullifyNAN »

chii wrote: post #100
ironmagma wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are doing something that has inherent value — extracting gold from a mine, performing music, working a factory line — you are the top of funnel for value creation. Unfortunately for you, the only way for society to run is to have your would-be profits extracted to the maximum extent by other parties. Therefore the rich are the ones who actually don’t tend to produce as much and those who do are taken advantage…

> The father away you are from value production, generally the better off you are. you are only counting the human labour involved in the creation of value. what about the capital? Would you, as a hired gold miner, be able to accept zero pay for your work, until the gold is sold (then you got the full price of the sold gold)? What if you starved between the time you mined it, and the time it takes to sell? And how wo…

The equipment was constructed by workers. The mine was constructed by workers. The food to feed the workers was produced by workers. The gold was sold by workers.

If value was derived from capital itself, then a pile of tools or machines would spontaneously generate wealth without the application of human labor, and idle money in a bank would somehow enrich society.

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