Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore? • Hacker News Board

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#151

Post by GaggiX » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #136

GaggiX wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there similar things where you have to declare something that is in no way provable in game development? It feels kinda silly.

Yes, its fairly normal for distribution platforms to require you to declare that you have the rights for everything in your game (which is in no way provable), extending it to everything in the training set(s) for the model(s) used for generative AI used is ludicrous, but just amounts to the same thing plus the (almost certainly false) assumption that every work produced by AI generation is legally a derivative work…

>which is in no way provable

I guess in that sense it's not provable by the platform, but it is provable by the actual copyright owner if you're infringing one.

What I mean before is that no human can know whether you used Firefly or SD or MJ or some other custom model.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#152

Post by doctorwho42 » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

wiz21c wrote: post #126

justapassenger wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk management. AI generated content has high likelihood of copyright infringement.

funny, a while ago MSFT said Copilot was not stealing code, it was merely reading it...

And Microsoft isn't the government. So I see no bearing on the actual issue at hand, which is valve protecting it's own ass from lawsuits that are in the realm of murk at best.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#153

Post by ekianjo » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

urda wrote: post #95

bunga-bunga wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like a cop-out. They can't possibly verify that any content they're hosting isn't already copyrighted, let alone in a "murky copyright state"

> Sounds like a cop-out. Adhering to legal and copyright standards isn't a "cop-out"

And which standard is that for ai generated art ?

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#154

Post by bee_rider » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

wiz21c wrote: post #126

justapassenger wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Risk management. AI generated content has high likelihood of copyright infringement.

funny, a while ago MSFT said Copilot was not stealing code, it was merely reading it...

It isn’t a settled legal issue yet. It could be that Valve and Microsoft are responding to different incentives, because they have different business models. But it could also just be that their lawyers have different legal opinions.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#155

Post by brucethemoose2 » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

eropple wrote: post #132

brucethemoose2 wrote: post #127

Well what if someone ships a model exclusively trained on legal content?

Then you tell Valve that and they say "OK"?

Would they though?

I think the legality of the dataset would be hard to prove. And I can see some game devs straight up lying, shipping SD 1.5/Llama, and dragging Valve into court when one of them explodes in popularity.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#156

Post by TaupeRanger » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

whywhywhywhy wrote: post #123

This will change within 6 months I promise you, EA/Ubisoft/etc will ALL be shipping AI generated textures in games before the end of the year.

That's not a change from this though, as long as those AI generated textures are from systems that were trained on images that they have permission to use (or are copyright free).

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#157

Post by emveeoh » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #9

> After reviewing, we have identified intellectual property in [Game Name Here] which appears to belongs to one or more third parties. In particular, [Game Name Here] contains art assets generated by artificial intelligence that appears to be relying on copyrighted material owned by third parties. As the legal ownership of such AI-generated art is unclear, we cannot ship your game while it contains these AI-generated…

[dead]

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#158

Post by doctorwho42 » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

vkou wrote: post #102

urda wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sounds like a cop-out. Adhering to legal and copyright standards isn't a "cop-out"

And neither is choosing to act in a situation where the legality isn't clear. I understand that OpenAI et al would like to assure all their investors and customers that there's nothing legally problematic with using an AI to launder away copyright infrigement, but we're going to need a few lawsuits to have the matter settled.

And valve leadership has made a decent decision of 'we don't want to be the ones being the defendants on what could be a costly and time consuming lawsuit for something they didn't make'

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#159

Post by mr_coleman » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #74

bob1029 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This just creates a moral hazard to not disclose the use of any AI-generated assets The whole space is somewhat amusing to me. what is the bigger moral hazard: Openly disclosing everything about your content pipeline and getting your team's efforts shitcanned, or keeping everything private unless a court order shows up?

So, the OpenAI model?

I prefer to think of it as the Uber/AirBnB model. Just do illegal things so much that you clog the enforcement mechanisms. Then it becomes such an unreasonable burden that they change the laws in your favor.

Re: Valve is not willing to publish games with AI generated content anymore?

#160

Post by kemayo » Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 5:34 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #105

BlueTemplar wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on the court, burdens of proof can vary a lot...

In court, it would be the entity claiming infringement that would have the burden of proof that their exclusive rights under copyright were violated by the assets in question, not the distributor of the asset that had the burden of showing ownership of every item in the training set of the model used in some part of the workflow.

What I'd assume Valve is worried about is that it only takes one major decision against Stable Diffusion in court to suddenly leave us in a state where "this game used Stable Diffusion" is the proof that's needed.

Given the whole "Stable Diffusion reproduces the Getty Images watermark" lawsuit[1] that's still ongoing, it's not an idle concern.