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The Case Against Travel

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Re: The Case Against Travel

#151
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My best friend is Indian. Many of my friends are. We talked a lot about India. I read a lot about India. I watched a bunch of Indian movies. I ate my fair share of Indian food. And then I went there. Nothing could have prepared me for it. Seeing it for yourself is a whole different beast. It puts the whole thing in context. Reducing a whole culture to a meal in a local approximation of its cuisine? Come on. Hell, aft…

So pretend to understand after visiting for a long weekend?

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: The Case Against Travel

#152
I'd sum this up as: "A wealthy 1st world person is dismissive of their own possibilities". Like if we here said "Internet is useless, because people just watch porn and post kittie photos."

As someone from the former Eastern Block, I may reassure, that first travels abroad, especially if it wasn't mass sea resort, were transformative, mind-changing for us. For some who traveled back in the 90s, they were a shock. So yes, travel does change people. I remember well the English teachers who went on short programs to study abroad, and brought mostly their observations, some random artifacts like tourist brochures, that we, stundents, would look at and read.

Sure, after some trips you get less and less impressions, but... what's the right amount of travel?

Even a 1-2 days trip can boost curiosity. People come to a monument to an unexpected person in unexpected city -- start looking up his bio, start reading history books. Or start studying urban design being impressed with other cities -- I saw this with my eyes.

I can give my own example, that even having a lot of correspondence with people abroad, only after traveling in person I shook some my stereotypes off, for instance to Brazil (I've been to 8 big cities.) Made me learn the language, made write columns and be sort of volunteer journalist for a while. After I was promoting some solutions from other countries, later travels made me notice their drawbacks and be balanced in the views.

I think the author thinks mostly of mass tourism and the type who travel alone but stay in hostels with other tourists, hang out between themselves and just fill their checklists of things to visit. Well, even though this may be true, you can't draw a clear border between superficial and "transformative" travel. (Same goes for museums -- I've heard som art & museums folks both complain that "art" is not popular enough, and despise the selfie-takers who post about exhibitions on instagram.)

Re: The Case Against Travel

#153
post #56

The author has a point in regards to short trips (~2 weeks). However, I think if you travel and stay longer, the impact on your identity is far different. I've been traveling longer-term for two and half years, staying at each place for at least a month when possible. I'm amazed at how much experience I can pack in a week, time that used to spent commuting. I'm able to observe a lot of different people going about th…

I saw 2-day trips lead people to looking up some history books, biographies, and so on.

Re: The Case Against Travel

#155
post #19
post #14

I can't see why so many people look down on traveling. I do not tell people unless asked (it is not part of my identity) but I traveled my fair share and it changed me a lot. The food I eat (the better half of my diet), the way I drive, my values for a fulfilled life, my willingnes to accept risks in life, appreciation and compassion for regions and many things more. Traveling is what you make out of it. If they walk…

It's treated in a very similar way to many other status-linked luxuries which used to be the preserve of the upper classes and then spread to the masses through commodification. Theres probably a name for it. If there isnt there should be. Burberryfication? A lot of people who do travel I don't think actually enjoy it much but feel compelled to engage in status games. Meanwhile the upper classes and aspiring upper cl…

[dead]

Re: The Case Against Travel

#156

I hate the queues, waiting, paperwork, being packed into tiny airplane seats, the monotony of long distance flights, the constant packing & unpacking, lumpy beds, other tourists, and the extravagant cost of everything. Other than all the inconveniences, travel isn't too bad if you have the time and money.

Same. Also being exhausted at the destination and wanting a vacation from your vacation. Then finally getting home totally wiped out and having to go back to work the next day wishing that you'd taken an actual vacation instead of wasting your free time traveling.

I have had a few fun times while traveling.

Hanging out behind the hotel with one of the hotel workers, feeding the stray animals that came by and talking about our pets (we both took in rescues and 'un-adoptable' pets).

Chatting with some random salesman in a bar, whose business was in no way related to the convention I was in town for, but he could speak so eloquently and interestingly in a way that just made you feel like you were actually there in his stories. It was like having a conversation with Mark Twain.

Stepping into a local townie bar just to get out of the heat for a few minutes only to find that it wasn't technically open, but nobody really cared because some of the locals would hang out there with the owner even when it was closed and they didn't mind us being there either.

Stopping in with some acquaintances at a run-down grungy dive bar, that just happened to be having trivia/karaoke night with two local teams that had an intense rivalry and we came in as spoilers.

None of that is in any way touristy or any kind of highbrow culture or achievement or profound magical experience. Just those mundane slices of life of being stuck somewhere with strangers for a brief time before you go your separate ways, those were the real fun parts. And you can do that anywhere, right in your own town even, without all the hassle and unpleasantness of travel.

Re: The Case Against Travel

#157
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Travel/tourism is what I like to call "rudeness in aggregate". What I mean with that is that single individual people are doing nothing egregiously wrong as such, but above a certain number all combined create a strong negative ("rude") effect. The most obvious example of this in context of travel are these huge cruise ships. No one is really doing anything wrong with that, as such, but craptons of tourists descendin…

>single individual people are doing nothing egregiously wrong Because you included the word "egregiously" I suppose technically you are right, but only on a technicality. A small "wrong" at the individual level becomes "egregiously" wrong at the population level. - one person eating food in the streets in Japan isn't egregious, every tourist doing it is. - one person being loud in a church in Italy isn't egregious, a…

Everyone makes mistakes; I tend to be forgiving.

For example "eating in the street is rude" is one of those things that's just a foreign concept to many people outside Japan. I just so happen to know about this from a YouTube video I once watched, but if it wasn't for that I could see myself doing it. Hell, even with that I could see myself just forgetting because it's such an alien concept to me that this is considered rude.

Re: The Case Against Travel

#158
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>single individual people are doing nothing egregiously wrong Because you included the word "egregiously" I suppose technically you are right, but only on a technicality. A small "wrong" at the individual level becomes "egregiously" wrong at the population level. - one person eating food in the streets in Japan isn't egregious, every tourist doing it is. - one person being loud in a church in Italy isn't egregious, a…

Everyone makes mistakes; I tend to be forgiving. For example "eating in the street is rude" is one of those things that's just a foreign concept to many people outside Japan. I just so happen to know about this from a YouTube video I once watched, but if it wasn't for that I could see myself doing it. Hell, even with that I could see myself just forgetting because it's such an alien concept to me that this is conside…

I was more saying when a tourist considers their actions. Not if. Of course not everyone knows every social idiosyncratic curiosity of countries they visit.

But "I'm only a tourist, it's ok" leads to the egregious "tourists are bad" concept.

Re: The Case Against Travel

#159
Judging by the comments here, I guess I'm the only one guilty of traveling in the way the author describes, for the reasons the author describes, and having the experience the author describes. Evidently, everyone else is traveling the right way.

Re: The Case Against Travel

#160
Relevant: “Why do the Wrong People Travel?”, song by Noël Coward, 1961.

Lyrics at

https://lyricstranslate.com/en/noel-coward-why-do-wrong-peop...

1. Travel they say improves the mind, An irritating platitude, which frankly, entre nous, Is very far from true. Personally I’ve yet to find that longtitude and latitude can educate those scores of monumental bores Who travel in groups and herds and troupes Of varying breeds and sexes Till the whole world reels to shouts and squeals And the clicking of Roliflexes.

2 Why do the wrong people travel, travel, travel When the right people stay back home ? What compulsion compels them and who the hell tells them To drag their cans to Zanzibar, instead of staying quietly in Omaha The Taj Mahal, the Grand Canal and the sunny French Riviera Would be less oppressed if the Middle West Would settle for somewhere rather nearer

3 Please do not think that I criticize or cavel At a genuine urge to roam But why, oh why do the wrong people travel When the right people stay back home ? — And mind their business When the right people stay back home ? — With cinerama [variante : and eat.... doughnuts When the right people stay back home ? — I'm merely asking [variante : I sometimes wonder] Why the right people stay back home ?

4 Just when you think romance is ripe it rather sharply dawns on you That each sweet serenade is for the tourist trade Any attractive native type who resolutely fawns on you Will give as her address American Express There isn’t a rock between Bangkok and the beaches of Hispianola That does not recoil from suntan oil and the gurgle of Coca-Cola

5 Why do the wrong people travel, travel, travel When the right people stay back home ? What explains this mass mania to leave Pennsylvania And clack around like flocks of geese Demanding dry martinis on the isles of Greece ? On the smallest street, where the gourmets meet, They invariably fetch up And it’s hard to make them accept a steak that isn’t served rare and smeared with ketchup

6 Millions of tourists are churning up the gravel While they gaze at St. Peter's dome, But why oh why do the wrong people travel When the right people stay back home ? — And eat hot doughnuts When the right people stay back home ? — With all that lettuce When the right people stay back home ? — Won't someone tell me why the right people stay back home ?

7 Why do the wrong people travel, travel, travel When the right people stay back home? What peculiar obsessions inspire those processions Of families from Houston Tex With all those cameras around their necks ? They will take a train Or an aeroplane For an hour on the Costa Brava, And they'll see Pompeii On the only day When it's up to its ass in molten lava !

8 It would take years to unravel, ravel, ravel Every impulse that makes them roam But why, oh why do the wrong people travel When the right people stay back home ? — With all their Kleenex When the right people stay back home ? — With all their K... ?? * I sometimes wonder... *

https://lyricstranslate.com

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