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Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

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Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#151
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problems are (non-exhaustively): - Many interview coding problems are very unlike what we have had to do in our daily tasks, and very unlike what will be required if we get the job. - If the company is trying to avoid that problem by making the coding part of the interview working on actual problems they're having, then that means the interviewee is giving the company work for free. (Unless the company pays for i…

The first two items there contradict each other. What’s an employer to do? This list of problems only reflects the point of view of a relatively inexperienced candidate who doesn’t like interviews, it’s not a list of problems that companies have, or that people with strong skills and experience have. It’s an assumption to expect interviews need to reflect the work on the job or match daily tasks. Interviews are the e…

You seem to be leaving out an awful lot of types of jobs there.

Do accountants have to provide a portfolio?

Do museum curators have to spend several hours curating a collection for their prospective employers, for free?

Do any of the 31 flavors of middle management have to sit through a "leet-manage" test?

Professions that require on-the-spot demonstration of your skills in order to be hired are very much the outlier, not the norm.

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#152
post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first two items there contradict each other. What’s an employer to do? This list of problems only reflects the point of view of a relatively inexperienced candidate who doesn’t like interviews, it’s not a list of problems that companies have, or that people with strong skills and experience have. It’s an assumption to expect interviews need to reflect the work on the job or match daily tasks. Interviews are the e…

You seem to be leaving out an awful lot of types of jobs there. Do accountants have to provide a portfolio? Do museum curators have to spend several hours curating a collection for their prospective employers, for free? Do any of the 31 flavors of middle management have to sit through a "leet-manage" test? Professions that require on-the-spot demonstration of your skills in order to be hired are very much the outlier…

Yes, correct. You and I both left out nearly all job types. You’re making sweeping generic claims about all jobs without any specific evidence. And I still don’t really see a clear problem or any suggestion for an alternative. The point you didn’t address here is that programmers are paid more than accountants, museum curators, and much more than burger-flippers. If you want a high paying job coding, and it typically requires doing just a tiny bit of live coding, why not spend time practicing instead of complaining? Another thing you haven’t addressed is that there are a lot of stories of programmers faking their way through job interviews. I don’t know how often it actually happens, but kids trying to game the system to get high paying jobs seems to be an actual problem, whereas statistically nobody is trying to fake their way into a museum curating job.

Do you consider certifications and qualifications to be a pre-hiring demonstration of skills? Many many jobs require these. Programming jobs sometimes require them, and those jobs are less likely to ask for on-the-spot programming during interviews. Not all programming jobs ask for live-coding, you shouldn’t assume they all do. Do you consider an interview to be a demonstration of skill? All the jobs you listed require interviews where you have to talk in technical detail about what you’ve done.

Speaking of outliers, there are almost no museum curating jobs, and they have to typically do a master’s degree and then spend years doing intern style work, perhaps similar to a doctor’s residency. Then after all that, the median salary is less than half of the median programmer’s salary. Accountants and Baskin Robbins managers also make less than programmers on average, and the sum total of jobs available in all three jobs you just listed is relatively small compared to doctors and artists - in the US (for example) there are ~1.5M accountants, less than 10k curators, and just over 2k Baskin Robbins, while artist jobs alone are double that of accountants and including doctors is around ~4M jobs. The number of programming jobs in the US is around 4.5M. Between artists and programmers, the number of jobs that requires on-the-spot skills demonstrations is definitely much larger than all jobs you just listed so far, even when I give you the benefit of the doubt and include all fast food managers in the US and not just Baskin Robbins.

Above you illustrated some reasons why asking for a skill demonstration is a good idea, so I’m not sure why it matters whether or not it’s common for other job types. Maybe programming interviews have better outcomes than accounting interviews (fewer firings or bad employees per capita), in addition to higher average pay?

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find it very hard to say "I did X" for anything except for personal projects that I did myself from start to finish. I come from a culture that has a similar approach, where taking sole credit for team efforts is typically viewed negatively. Took me a few years to get the hang of lying on interviews and taking sole credit for team efforts. And ironically, it only dawned on me when I became an interviewer myself.…

You don't have to lie to talk in "I" form. You don't have to take the sole credit. Just be clear about what your influence was on the project. Not everyone lies on the interviews. I have absolutely never lied, and I can still use the "I" form. I usually make proportions of my involvements clear. For example if I start and architect/design the project, I will say so and then I will say I successfully onboarded others…

>> Just be clear about what your influence was on the project.

God, stop being grandiose and talking about the project and deliveries. Did you implement a specific feature? Squash a a bug? Find a solution to a specific problem? If you didn't do any of those - specifically by yourself (or mostly so) I don't want you. Those are the key deliverables of a software developer.

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like I'd fail your pre-screen test. What's the "mathematical" solution if you're not allowed to convert strings to ints? Ascii math?

I think hahamrfunnyguy must have meant "convert the numbers to strings" - that's the only way I can make sense of it. quiz.txt must contain code, not sample data.

Yes, quiz.txt was the start of a C# program with a main method and a function that was called to do the work asked.

The common string based solution was to use a for loop, convert the counter to a string, parse the digits converting each one to a an integer and performing the calculation.

The exercise was given in C# so candidates just use string interpolation to output the result

Re: Stop eliminating good candidates by asking them the wrong questions

#155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like I'd fail your pre-screen test. What's the "mathematical" solution if you're not allowed to convert strings to ints? Ascii math?

I think it just means taking the input as an integer and then separating out the “ones place”and “tens place” using integer division and modulo operator. E.g., ones = number % 10 tens = number // 10 do_print = (ones + tens) == 10

Yes. This is the mathematical solution.
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