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Rust: The wrong people are resigning

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Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#151

Post by anonymouskimmer »

prepend wrote: post #140
anonymouskimmer wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vehemently disagree. The possible motives of those in power should always be looked at with a microscope, unless they give us comprehensive reasons as to the decisions they made. Your perspective, while well intentioned, is exactly the sort that drives implicit bias and a disregard for minority considerations or reasoning that the decision makers don't personally relate to.

> The possible motives of those in power should always be looked at with a microscope There are myriad possible motives. Looking at them all without evidence is not productive. I would say that all credible motives and reasons should be examined. But speculating about every or any possible motive without evidence or meaning is a waste of time at best.

Speculation always devolves to a waste of time if extending indefinitely without reality checking. When it comes to people in power the speculation can, at the very least, encourage them to be loquacious with respect to the reasons for their decisions.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#152

Post by shadowbanevader »

h2odragon wrote: post #59

Time for a fork? "Rust without identity politics?" Require anonymity and disclaimers of any human presence (virtues or failings) in regards to the Project in order to become a contributor. Call it "Dust". Mascot could be a crab louse.

https://github.com/crablang/crab

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#153

Post by throwawaymaths »

chippiewill wrote: post #88
throwawaymaths wrote: post #6

> downgrade was not racially motivated, thankfully Who would have suspected this was racially motivated? Not to defend any actions by anyone, but a keynote is an unusual place to talk about experimental feature a language is considering (unless it's a small component of a bigger update/forecast). That said once the decision was made they should have gone through with it.

It's not that unusual. Herb Sutter's 2022 CppCon keynote was on a prototype redesign of the C++ syntax/language.

Cool, thanks to know there was precedence. I've never seen one, but to be fair I don't have a comprehensive experience seeing every keynote :)

My general feeling is that keynotes are for "setting the tone" of the conference/conference day.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#154

Post by Gwypaas »

caust1c wrote: post #99
twelfthnight wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

Golang has lots of good examples of design discussions without vitriol in their RFCs and proposals. There is the occasional bikeshedding and needless bickering granted, but it mostly stays civil and is the most mature language community I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.

Benevolent dictators make things way easier.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#155

Post by euiq »

caust1c wrote: post #99
twelfthnight wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

Golang has lots of good examples of design discussions without vitriol in their RFCs and proposals. There is the occasional bikeshedding and needless bickering granted, but it mostly stays civil and is the most mature language community I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.

Clearly the solution is to clone Russ Cox.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#156

Post by pg_1234 »

twelfthnight wrote: post #32
d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

The "don't leave, stay and fix things from the inside" pitch is how the political schemers try to pull the tech talent back into an arena where they can be worn down into submission, so that their skills can be co-opted by those whose only real talent is to steal the productivity of others.

The only way to free a project from such entrenched rot is an ultimatum; "You can have the builders or the schemers, but not both".

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#157

Post by simplify »

twelfthnight wrote: post #32
d3nj4l wrote: post #8

In a way, I find this entire saga incredibly funny. There is so much hand wringing and pearl clutching at something that is supposedly in the shadows - this cabal of four or five people making decisions - that it makes the entire Rust "community" look juvenile. This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers, not about a language whose governance involves multiple major corporations!

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

Agreed. Evil wins because good does nothing. Or in this case, evil reigns because good resigns.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#158

Post by biomcgary »

caust1c wrote: post #99
twelfthnight wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wish we had more role models these days who were willing to disagree with decisions and work to fix them rather than loudly resign or point fingers. Feels like there is a lot of pressure these days that if you are part of a "bad" system then _you_ are bad, even if you are trying to improve it from the inside. So it's understandable people quit instead of taking on the burden of having to prove their "goodness", it's…

Golang has lots of good examples of design discussions without vitriol in their RFCs and proposals. There is the occasional bikeshedding and needless bickering granted, but it mostly stays civil and is the most mature language community I've ever had the pleasure of being a part of.

I think there might be a connection between Go's pragmatism and the culture fostered around it and Rust's correctness and its culture.

On the other hand, it could be that Google owning Go makes the bigger difference. I know that Ian Lance Taylor created several versions of generics that got shot down, which must have been frustrating. However, I don't remember hearing the slightest bit of internal conflict from the core team. (I pick on generics because it was the largest and longest "conflict" in Go's history.)

The primary language developers/owners work at the same company, so presumably they have more bandwidth (behind closed doors) and more financial incentive to provide a united front. Or, they're just a pragmatic group of engineers with drama turned to -11.

Re: Rust: The wrong people are resigning

#159

Post by mr_00ff00 »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #113
meindnoch wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is the kind of internecine conflict I should see in Anime discord servers Anime/furry culture has a significant overlap with the Rust community as far as I can tell as an outsider. E.g. there was that guy developing a Linux GPU driver for M1 Macs, narrating it with an anime "waifu" avatar and a speech plugin that makes you sound like a little girl from a Japanese cartoon.

The Rust community I’m familiar with is basically like any other group of programming enthusiasts who want to talk about and work with a language. Whatever is going on in Twitter land and with the drama around conferences and boards is a different world, but they aren’t necessarily one and the same.

I was gonna say, I experience this a lot. Most rust users I meet and see on HN are nice and welcoming.

But on twitter, it’s all tribalism and attacking other languages and other people. Gives a distorted figure of what the community really is.

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