Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

A mental health crisis in science

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 212 posts

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#151

Post by syngrog66 »

My understanding is that there's been a big rise in mental illness, anxiety and stress in general, over the last 10 yeats or so. And its true across professions, ages, race, gender or sexuality.

A lot of factors pushing for it:

1. the general madness and chaos of the Trump presidency ("When I wake up in the morning will I learn Trump has launched nukes at North Korea? Or vice versa?" etc etc, ad nauseum for 4 years)

2. COVID lockdowns and economic swings

3. apparent explosive rise in gun mass shootings -- "Will I or my loved ones be next?"

4. social media's toxic effect on peace of mind, in general

5. active efforts by various actors to spread lies, sow tensions and trigger violence (eg. stochastic terrorism)

6. carbon climate crisis... a biggie

Therefore I've been building a sci-fi post-apoc, educational game lately [SB: see below] which happens to take as its premises that:

7. humanity (or at least the US) fails to save democracy

8. humanity fails to act boldly enough or fast enough to save us from the worst of climate change's most dystopic effects

9. and therefore, due to all of above, there's a yet further MASSIVE rise in mental health disorders (all the way up to full blown de facto "insanity") -- eg. like many of the survivors you see in the Mad Max films

From a purely entertainment standpoint I loved watching films like Idiocracy and Mad Max Fury Road. As a person in the real world and a patriotic citizen I don't want to see us descend to that level of insanity, struggle and suffering. Our existing mental health systems are already inadequate today. If we start losing more doctors, nurses & therapists to anxiety/depression or over-work fatigue (speaking in broad terms), and also scientists, engineers, teachers, etc, then it will get MUCH worse.

----

[SB] - https://synystrongames.itch.io/slartboz

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#152

Post by wat_do_phd_923 »

This isn't even remotely surprising.

I'm a current PhD student in a coveted top-3 program. We have one of the better stipends in the country, and I've been fully funded by fellowships. My advisor thinks highly of me and isn't abusive. I have a perfect GPA (not that that matters), some publications, and pretty broad technical skills in "hot" area(s). Nevertheless, graduation feels hopelessly out of reach, and I'm getting closer and closer to dropping out.

Academia is full of cronyism, perverse incentives, idea theft. Never mind work-life balance, there is no distinction whatsoever between work and life. There's no "out" if you're in a bad situation; you can't just change jobs like in the real world; your advisor is your "third parent". The incentive structures make it nearly impossible to meaningfully collaborate without some petty authorship conflict arising. It's isolating and seemingly designed to create unhappy, atomized, paranoid, jealous, mean-competitive people. At the end, there is ultimately no reward, materially speaking: all but the very tippy-top academic job tracks are no better.

Academia's clerical heritage is not its only monastic quality. I'm on the wrong side of my 20s and still living in a tiny, crappy apartment with a roommate. At this point I implicitly believe I will never get close to owning a home. That a family is out of the question. That the future is always worse than the present. I've gradually turned into a learned-helplessness "sorry I exist" person, without ever noticing.

Suddenly I see how pathetic that is. I'm ready to change back. I'm ready to be optimistic and ambitious and self-confident again. I'm ready to live a life of improvement, not stagnation. I'm ready to build something meaningful. Not to mention, my eyes are finally opening to how much I could be making in industry if only I hadn't been so proud/idealistic/willfully ignorant... And how much better that kind of salary can make your life.

For the right offer, I am so ready to break free (DMs open (just kidding (but actually though))).

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#153

Post by CrazyStat »

ordersofmag wrote: post #127
greenhearth wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can these grants provide a living wage?

Wages paid by grants in general have to match whatever the institutions 'standard' pay scales are. So it's the institutions deciding pay rates. At least in the U.S..

My wife is currently in the middle of a fight over this. Her salary is paid by a grant from an organization that has a minimum pay scale for postdocs. The university has its own standard pay scale for postdocs, which is about $20k/year lower. So far they've refused to budge. It's not even their money, there's just 4 layers of bureaucracy who have nothing better to do than ~enforce policy~ no matter the cost.

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#154

Post by ykonstant »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #62

Fundamentally, the research industry requires continuous exponential growth to accommodate everyone working there. Each PI trains 10+ grad students in their career. Where do those students go? They all want to become PIs themselves. Otherwise why would they get a PhD? Ultimately the majority must be disappointed and leave for positions outside academia. But leaving academia is a process that takes some time. First co…

>And the actual experience of a postdoc! Leave all your friends and move to a new city.

Continent.

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#155

Post by baja_blast »

jdlyga wrote: post #149

I grew up in a family of scientists and professors. It's really disheartening to see how much trouble it is to make a living nowadays. My grandfather was an entomology professor, and was able to support a wife, 3 kids, and a nice house though they were no means wealthy. If you can't support yourself or a family in 2023 working in academia, why would anyone pursue it as a career?

And this will lead to the a stagnation of science if the best and brightest disincentivized from participating.

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#156

Post by bumby »

tptacek wrote: post #56
bioemerl wrote: post #53

Science as a whole has died a hard death. All reward and prestige of being a researcher has been lost and the people in the study have a slim chance of being able to work with their degree. Which I understand is about the opposite of what this article wants, but you shouldn't trust the people who have broken science to fix it. Research itself gets locked behind tightly walled journals and are written with obscure and…

I've heard a lot of complaints from a lot of different people working in lab science (in my case, my interest was in bio & chem) and none of them were about "tightly walled journals" (working academic researchers generally have institutional access, and when the logins are annoying to manage they just sci-hub like everyone else) or IRBs. Rather, it was very basic stuff, like being told to come in at 5:30AM to feed a…

A lot of this seems to be poor leadership ability. Unfortunately, it seems like in the sciences you can get get promoted because you’re really good technically, but these skills don’t mean you can manage a hill of beans. Rather than treating the whole system down, maybe we need to look to promote those who can manage teams rather than just those who are “merely” technically bright.

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#157

Post by Hermitian909 »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #4
_fat_santa wrote: post #3

It seems like this is a symptom of a larger problem, rates of anxiety and depression have been going up in recent years in pretty much every facet. I always hear that social media is to blame, but I wonder if that is really the case? I feel like something else is going on, maybe it's just a totality of smaller issues rather than one big problem.

Social media does sound like a decent theory though. To your point, the issues plaguing the US ( and indeed the world ) have not changed that much over the past four decades. What did change is relative access to information, which exacerbated and maybe even hastened some trends. The small factors were always there, but were not as commonly seen for a variety of reasons ( social stigma, exposure to media, 'toughen up…

> To your point, the issues plaguing the US ( and indeed the world ) have not changed that much over the past four decades.

Inside the US, this sounds wrong both anecdotally and from the data. I'd argue the cost of "living" has gone up quite substantially. Since 1980 rent has risen 140% and incomes 20%[0].

Anecdotally, in the 1970s it was entirely possible to live in an acceptable city or suburb on part-time work, and you could have your own apartment on minimum wage. You might not have nice things but I know many people who spent their 20s very comfortably like this not worrying about how to afford living. (having a family on this budget was not feasible, but that's another thing)

Conversely today I don't know anyone making less than less than 40k/yr who is not constantly stressing about food costs and how they'll make rent.

[0] https://www.realestatewitch.com/rent-to-income-ratio-2022/

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#158

Post by Hermitian909 »

generic92034 wrote: post #47
grt_thr wrote: post #9

When I was a post grad I could make less than I would at McDonalds for work I was volontold to do. I did the smart thing and quit. When you select for people who don't do the smart thing and want to be exploited in exchange for prestige they get exploited.

True. But please consider the difference the social background of the people makes. If you are financially secure due to parents (or whatever) you can easily accept positions with a low payment and do your best to get into a promising tenure track. So maybe it is only partly about exploitation, but also about applying a social filter.

I would describe the best "second-tier" academics I've encountered as mostly fitting the "parents money" archetype.

They're not the uber geniuses who flit to the top, but since the toxic incentives aren't as important to them due to their financial independence they get to focus on the work which ultimately pays dividends in their career.

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#159

Post by explorer83 »

kevviiinn wrote: post #111
eli_gottlieb wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's not a matter of the "culture" at all. It's just a matter of low pay, long hours, and minuscule chances of job security and advancement. (He says as he writes his thesis and prepares to start his postdoc.)

Honestly I would be happy if I just got paid as a 100% FTE. I'm literally in the lab all the time, this 50% nonsense is BS. They say it's because international students are restricted to 20 hours per week, so okay just double the pay then and still call it 50%. The salary for my current work is super low anyhow, I'd be making way more if I got a job at big pharma with my current degrees

I toggle around with the idea that the system is designed or heavily influenced to be like this to benefit the big-industries and rich people. Have talent but need money? Work for big industry. Have money and can afford to stay in school? Get some patents and get more rich. I know this is a bit tin foil hat-ish.

Re: A mental health crisis in science

#160

Post by eli_gottlieb »

greenhearth wrote: post #91
tptacek wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academic research is funded by grants.

Can these grants provide a living wage?

Well, if we got rid of the administrators taking half the grants, we could probably almost double the wages. So in many cases, yes.
Post reply on HN