The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably • Hacker News Board

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#151

Post by endisneigh » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

Taywee wrote: post #147

endisneigh wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, most software is harmless. There are some scenarios where it could do harm, but ultimately said harm was the product of human usage of the software, not software inherently. There are a few examples such as medical device software and things like train software where honest mistakes can result in human harm. However even with those the issue was that humans made the mistakes. Software development as a discipline…

Replace "software" with "guns" in your post and it's the same effect.

Sure. There are people who think guns are harmless and do not need to be regulated. There are those who do.

At the end of the day guns do not shoot people on their own, though.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#152

Post by tpxl » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:27 PM UTC

andybak wrote: post #63

gumballindie wrote: post #50

> While the AI Act’s references to copyright issues in generative AI are still very vague and only stress how much of a grey area it is, requiring providers of large models to be more transparent about their sources seems not a bad thing as such. As many aspects of the act it will be seen how this works out in practice. If my license prohibits use of my work for ai training, or requires that any modified code include…

This feels like (yet another) extension of copyright. Whilst I'm not sure I completely disagree with you, I want people to acknowledge that copyright is not the natural state of the universe. Prior to (I think) 1790 there was no copyright and human beings managed minor things like, you know, the renaissance and stuff like that. Copyright was invented and enforced and the results have been a mixed bag. It seems to suf…

If creating LLMs based on copyrighted data is found to be legal, all that will do is allow giant companies to sell copyrighted work without crediting the original authors, while leaving everyone else in the dirt.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#153

Post by hef19898 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:28 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #137

gumballindie wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said the same about GDPR and is working fine. If a company crosses me I just request data removal and call it a day. It's all good. I do hate GDPR popups tho.

by what metric is it working fine?

Yes. Sorry, I mean most of them metrics.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#154

Post by robertlagrant » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #94

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine. Promoting innovation as an ideologiy has become camouflage for mass exploitation. Most 'innovation' that happens in SV is either advertising nonsense or so new trick to avoid labor laws. I've lived in both the USA and The Netherlands and I now live in The Netherlands. I recently had to renew my Dutch driver's license and the entire process so painless and quick. Compared to my experiences doing the same thing i…

> Americans wouldn't know real innovation if a walkable neighborhood arrived on a highspeed train and began eliminating healthcare bureaucracy. Thanks for the laugh, beautifully put. In general I agree with your point, Americans hyperfocus on certain types of innovation (reinventing this or that wheel, "revolutionising X", like every single bullshit "reinventing transportation" "like a train, but much worse" proposal…

I think the big difference is the US is customer-focused, and the EU is employee-focused.

To be stereotypical: in the US organisations exist to provide value people choose to pay for (e.g. electric cars; cheap rocketry; cheaper accommodation for travel; cheaper and much more convenient taxis); in the EU they exist to employ people, and hopefully they provide value, but if they don't provide much it's fine because it's pretty difficult to start a competitor anyway.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#155

Post by hef19898 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:29 PM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #141

aqme28 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say the same things about FDA regulations? As a programmer who used to work on medical devices, these sound pretty similar like the FDA regulations we dealt with. The goal isn't to stifle innovation, it's to keep scammers and crooks out of the market and make things better for everyone. The EU doesn't want another Thalidomide, and the US shouldn't want another Theranos.

I am not calling to abolish all regulation. But please consider this: How many people’s lives could have been saved if FDA regulations didn’t make medical approvals take 10 years? How many life-saving medications could have been invented if the cost of approval didn’t limit innovation to the biggest companies?

History has those answers, recent history I mean. E.g. Contergan.

Medical regulations are written in literal blood and dead people. Really good example for Chesterton's fence.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#156

Post by robertlagrant » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:32 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #145

robertlagrant wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many do complain about that?

In Germany? A lot, apparently a RSU or ESOP program is to hard to set-up, paying higher base salaries out of the question, so they complain about zheir inability to allow their "worker" participate on the company "success", mostly as a diversion from the fact that they just don't want to. Or taxes, something impossible to do for a new, academic / SW engineer led start-up to do in Germany. It is so bad, if you delieve…

Okay, but how many is it? How many VP-backed ones complain vs small businesses that don't? How do we control for the small businesses that just have no voice and toil away quietly?

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#157

Post by aqme28 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:32 PM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #141

aqme28 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say the same things about FDA regulations? As a programmer who used to work on medical devices, these sound pretty similar like the FDA regulations we dealt with. The goal isn't to stifle innovation, it's to keep scammers and crooks out of the market and make things better for everyone. The EU doesn't want another Thalidomide, and the US shouldn't want another Theranos.

I am not calling to abolish all regulation. But please consider this: How many people’s lives could have been saved if FDA regulations didn’t make medical approvals take 10 years? How many life-saving medications could have been invented if the cost of approval didn’t limit innovation to the biggest companies?

And how many have been saved because medical approvals are difficult?

We don’t know! But to ask incredulously about only one side of these questions is disingenuous.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#158

Post by Taywee » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:34 PM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #141

aqme28 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say the same things about FDA regulations? As a programmer who used to work on medical devices, these sound pretty similar like the FDA regulations we dealt with. The goal isn't to stifle innovation, it's to keep scammers and crooks out of the market and make things better for everyone. The EU doesn't want another Thalidomide, and the US shouldn't want another Theranos.

I am not calling to abolish all regulation. But please consider this: How many people’s lives could have been saved if FDA regulations didn’t make medical approvals take 10 years? How many life-saving medications could have been invented if the cost of approval didn’t limit innovation to the biggest companies?

It's as unanswerable a question as "how many lives would have been lost by dangerous medications with long-term side effects that didn't become apparent in the term of testing?"

We can't really know whether it was a net good or a net bad because we can't take a look at the reality that didn't happen. What we do know is that there were deadly medications on the market before the FDA. There were medications available over the counter that were outright poisonous. Arsenic and mercury were in common medicines.

It is a balance. You can sacrifice lives through inaction, or sacrifice lives in the way of progress. Lack of regulation is bad, but so is overregulation.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#159

Post by Silverback_VII » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

bjornsing wrote: post #29

Silverback_VII wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the EU has a history of crippling their native tech industry to the general detriment of the EU. It is quite possible that this will end up being one more nail in the coffin. The primary factor is brain drain. As many experts in geopolitics suggest, the European Union, in collaboration with Russia, could potentially rival, if not surpass, the United States in terms of power. However, it appears they are content to b…

EU and Putin together would be unstoppable…?

Yes, indeed, that's also why the United States takes all measures to make it nearly impossible.

Re: The EU AI act is coming, this time for real probably

#160

Post by hef19898 » Fri, May 12, 2023, 1:35 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #156

hef19898 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany? A lot, apparently a RSU or ESOP program is to hard to set-up, paying higher base salaries out of the question, so they complain about zheir inability to allow their "worker" participate on the company "success", mostly as a diversion from the fact that they just don't want to. Or taxes, something impossible to do for a new, academic / SW engineer led start-up to do in Germany. It is so bad, if you delieve…

Okay, but how many is it? How many VP-backed ones complain vs small businesses that don't? How do we control for the small businesses that just have no voice and toil away quietly?

If you want total freedom, unhinged and unlimited capitalism, not a single thread of law applying tor pursuite of wealth, well, bad luck, because you don't even get this in the US. Admittedly so, the US are scaringly close.